Story of the day '03 baja 75,000 miles, threw a rod and broke the case(wasn't beating on it, pulling away from a stoplight in trafic). All I can say is this was not So my questions: # 1. to everyone who has done an STI swap what is needed from start to finish? # 2. Can one run an STI bottom end Block,rods,crank and pistons and keep the soch heads(would this cause any tuning issues for the OE ecu And does this bring up any fitment issues with parts bolting on Ps pump/ac.....) . I don't necessarily need to go turbo(not that i don't want to) but this is a daily driver and well reliability is key as i don't want to be doing this again at this point in my life. I want a solid bottom end that will last regardless, My thought on running the Sti bottom end is that it is stronger and more durable. # 3. This goes out to Brian Shorten, What does a replacement engine go for these days? (I will call on monday, but if you see this and know a ball park price off the top of your head, let me know) # 4. Martin, How was your trip?
There is absolutely no reason for that happen. How often did you change the oil? Did you have any oil leaks? My thought would be to throw another Baja engine back in its place.
oil changes 2000-3000 miles every time. No knocking prior to it breaking. my thoughts are it spun a rod bearing or wrist pin seized, but there was no squeal of a seizing bearing, only other thought is the that it was a metallurgy related. I am a swiss machinist, former harley mechanic. Even though metal might be rated 316L stainless or 4340 chromly there are still imperfections in forming or casting as the rods are cast and then machined to final size/spec. Cracks and micro fissures can form during the poor of the cast and or cooling of the product . thats why re-builders magnaflux rods/cranks.... before assembly to check for cracks. After working in a manufacturing enviroment i can tell you I doubt Subaru does this. You are right there is absolutely no reason it should have happened, not on a N.A. motor that doesn't get raced. I am leaning towards the direct replacement route as it is a daily driver and doesn't see much abuse other than stop and go traffic.
stay stock! I doubt many people have done this and as cool as it might be you probably will get pissed off when there are questions on how to tune and NOONE knows
Don't get me wrong, I am more then likely going stock (leaning more then 90% that way) but everyone has to play devils advocate in a situation like this. I mean hell how often can you justify a complete engine replacement. If this were a project car i would more then be willing to do an STI swap But i already have 3 projects in the garage an '80 cj5 jeep needing a frame swap which is I guess where the funds for this engine swap are going to be coming from, a '99 fatboy in almost the same shape as the Baja engine (I don't have a flywheel trueing stand,come to find out the guy who I had true the flywheels took a short cut and now I am paying for it,LONG story there), and a another '76 Harley waiting for paint. So, Yes, a direct replacement is most likely in the future as it is quicker. From what I can tell a direct swap looks fairly straight up, anyone who has done one want to chime in here and give there pointers on this? Also any places with a good reputation to get a new/rebuilt engine? Yes I will be calling the dealer Monday. Martin want to help?
You can use any EJ series engine block of your choice. A popular option seems to be an STi shortblock with drop-in Mahle pistons. I'm sure you are more than capable enough to change to shortblock out. Its not much more work than changing head gaskets. I'm short on time now, but i can go into more detail later. And there's lots of literature on tuning. You just have to look for it.
Thats was sort of what i was thinking about, going to a Sti short block to get the durable bottom end, which would leave it open to any number of upgrades in the future for when this is no longer a daily driver. If my thinking is correct like you say the sti short block with Mahle to correct the compression ratio and at this time the stock SOHC heads and cams I don't think there would be a need to change/do any tuning as you are not changing the amount of air the motor can use. am I wrong on this? Are there any issues with crank position sensor or flywheel mounting? P.S. glad to here the input guys.
Others can chime in here, but I think the Mahle's are just a forged version of the stock piston. It doesn't alter the compression ratio on an STi. I'm not shure what they will do with your heads as the dish will probably be more since its a turbo piston. I'm gathering that your car is NA since you mentioned SOHC heads. Unless you got custom pistons, you'd have to live with a lower compression ratio. It'd be a bit doggier naturally aspirated, but great if you wanted to boost it down the road. As far as the periferals go, ie sensors, heads/intake, flywheel, pulley, oil pan, pickup, and so on will swap over the to new shortblock.
It would be nice to be able to live with it being doggy with the slightly lower compression but as everyone knows the NA Baja of '03 is factory doggy(a 17sec 1/4 is not fast) . Any one know what the combustion chambers of the Sti heads and SOHC heads cc at? if the sohc heads have a smaller chamber it would help to even the compression ratio out. I could always shave the sohc heads to correct it and leave the pistons alone and with the dish I doubt I would have to watch valve to piston clearance, then it would be an easy upgrade to the turbo later on as a solid base would be set. Hmmmm some thing to think about. A direct swap still would be easier and quicker getting parts.
Any one here delt with CCR engines? www.ccrengines.com If so what was your experience with them? Reliable? Quality work? this would be for a direct replacement option.
well did some tear down on the engine to get ready for a new one probably going the rout of a stock oe short block. However I think I came across the culprit of this whole mess. Looks like a wrist pin clip to me, found it sitting on top of the block right next to the large whole. I can't yet get a pic of the inside of the engine but looking inside through the hole you can see the wrist pin has backed out of the piston and has hit the block. Which is what looks to be the cause of this whole thing. If any one can say for sure this is the wrist pin clip, chime in.
here you go guys, take a look. I hope NO ONE else has to see this in their engine this blows:mercy: Even though the rods are bent and mangled they move freely, a credit to suby engineering on the bearings. Got to love the crushed piston :eek2:
WOW! That is some serious carnage. Definately worse than the shortblock sitting in readymix's garage. And it still turns freely. Crazy
Hey, Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you on this. I got your email right when i was heading out of town. I would be more than willing to help you get this back on the road again. One option you might consider if you want the stronger short block is to get the sti shortblock and put in the higher compression NA pistons. I am not sure if the baja has a different CR than other NA Ej25s or not. you might even gain power if you went with a RS piston since those are running like 10.5cr. In you email you mentioned TWE, what are getting from them?
well thinking of doing a mild NA build. Talked to the guys at bp subaru, a sti shortblock is the same price as a NA block. I talked to Techworks to see what can be done as far as a mild build with out getting into ecu mapping/stand alone. here is what I have been told: bumping compression up to 10.5. Stage 2 cams from TWE, delta, cobb or colt. Porting and polishing. Lastly exhaust. I realize the turbo pistons of the STI shortblock would be worthless to me. Now this raises some questions: any one who knows chime in. 1. both are the same stroke, but are the rods the same length? 2. 10.5cr pistons, who makes them for NA aplications 3. who around here (twin cities), does good porting work. Edit: stolen from MARNIX on nasioc "All the 2.0L rods and the 2.5L STI rods are equal in length (130.5 mm) big end center to small end center. All the 2.5L non-turbo rods are a smidgen longer at 131.6 mm big end to small end. Mind, the Phase I EJ25 rods (DOHC) have the small big end bearings, the later Phase II EJ25 (SOHC) rods have the same big end size as all the 2.0L and 2.5L STI rods." Is this correct? If so does some one make a piston with the wristpin 1.1mm lower to compensate for rod legnth? (am I thinking right on this?)
First, NO. Do NOT get an STi shortblock and then scrap the pistons. This is pointless. If you are going the route of an N/A 'build' then I'd recommend finding an EJ25N/A block on the used market, and then put new pistons in it. Finding pistons for an N/A build on a turbo 2.5 is going to be a nightmare...get ready to have one offs made because in all likelyhood, there is no market for putting NA spec pistons into a turbo semi-closed deck turbo block. Nobody does this, and it is an expensive route to take for something that will likely never EVER see the potential of the internals. I'll reserve my thoughts on TWE for another time. My advice, avoid them. Want more info, talk to Kelly(snbrd4evr) or myself at Firestone. You are trying to re-engineer the wheel here, when there are suitable options that will net you the desired effect already available. My advice to you, if you are going to stick with N/A specs, then I'd say get a stock N/A block and get back on the road. Forged pistons are nice and all, but completely un-necessary. Not to mention you'll spend tons of cash on TWE's N/A setup only to find out that for about 3000 you could have just swapped in a 2.0L WRX motor and heads that you found on eBay or Nasioc classifieds. You can do what you want, and more power to you if you decide to do this, but I don't think you are going to be happy with the results. And, IMO, running aftermarket cams without standalone EM on an N/A car is asking for it.
aftermarket cams aren't the issue. If you want to get into it, 1st i will state an engine is an air pump and an air pump is an air pump is an air pump. It is not the Horsepower gains I am after, what ever gain is gained great. It is the mileage gain that would be nice.The shift of the powerband down 600-1200rpm, not peak HP TQ numbers. For an air pump to function properly it must be free flowing. There is away around that though, forced induction. Turboing is not always the only option and in fact I can guarantee you it would be the opposite of what I want to get. Back on track, slightly higher valve lift is not what the ecu has trouble compensating for or the marginal flow gain, it is the duration of the cam and valve overlap that stock ecus have trouble with(this i have experience with, Built many fuel injected harleys) I may be new to subys but I am not new to engines or ecus. Yes some minor tuning may end up happening due to increased air flow but the stock map should be fine,larger injectors.The talk with TWE was to confirm some of my thoughts, I could care less about getting any thing from him, it shouldn't take 4days for a business to return a customers call. One doesn't always need to push the limit of the internals, over building is not ever a bad thing. lets see MY CURRENT NA engine: block, rods, a piston in 100 pieces(strike one for cast pistons), one head, 4 valves, a burnelled cam, a bent rocker arm set all on a engine that was well cared for. HMMM Engine in my jeep: aries 10:1 forged pistons, a towing cam, carillo rods, stock cast crank a whimpy 300chp but 50,000 miles of WOT @6000rpm in mud pits and still doesn't use oil. Over building = longevity. Not trying to re-engineer the wheel, just help it roll easier, longer. By the way stock is a REAL viable option, No way am i going to start ordering stuff without having a list of all available parts from start to finish with stock checked. But used NA engine, not an option, last thing I need to do is to buy used and find out 20k miles later I took some one else's troubles. There is an easy way around the rod length, Carillo . Bet some one wouldn't mind buying a set of new oe rods/pistons for there turbo they just pushed to the potential of the internals and blew up. Redymix, I am not trying to get into an argument over who can build an engine. If this were a chevy or a harley, these questions would never be asked by me and my engine would be done already, I know where to find those parts but it still amazes me how I can find 10 engine shops in 10 calls who specialize in amarican engines to port & polish a set of V8 heads. But not one Import specific shop that even knows any one who does it, in 10 calls. porting is a basic 1st step in engine building.
well back to stock it goes. Found pistons, however they say there is no production run in the immediate future(minimum 12weeks). Well sad to say I don't have time/want to wait that long. Redymix, back to stock she goes. Brian see you tomorrow @ BP Subaru, I'll be ordering parts. Lost the printed list you gave me, sorry you will have to look it up again.
well all the parts are here for a stock engine, but the oem gasket set doesn't include the end plug seals for the cams and BP morries only has one, any one on here have one? SOHC or can get one today.
Well one more up date for any one who wants to know how this has gone. Brand new oem heads and valves, Subaru short block (includes block, rods, pistons, oil pan, water pump, oil pump and pick up tube). Engine is in and running, However there are issues. 1. #1 cylinder has a rod/wristpin knock, IS NOT piston slap. Does not go away when warm but gets worse the longer the engine runs and more sever when put under a load. 2. Oil pump will not prime it's self when parked not running for any period of time or parked on a slope. Oil pump loses its prime like it is draining back. Lets see how Subaru handles there 12,000 mile, 12 month warranty.
hmm... same thing happen to my NA block, except, I gobble uped some water from a flood 1 month before.
The story of a Cummin's Subaru short block and warranty fiasco. Here the story goes, as the above thread states the original engine put its self on the permanently disabled list when a wrist pin clip went on vacation. So at 76,872 miles it was pulled and I attempted to purchase a new OEM short block however this has been replaced with a re manufactured one which includes the oil pan, oil pump, oil pickup tube, oil filter, and water pump already assembled on the unit. Since the new OEM short block doesn't come with these and the reman does for about the same price, this does not sound bad. The reman also carries a 3year/36,000 mile warranty as opposed to 1 year/ 12,000 mile. Shoot ahead, engine goes together fine, freshly cleaned intake runners and air box/piping. All looks great. Follow the tag on the short block for oil pump priming procedure, and oil light goes out. Has a slight knock on start up, as the 2.5 is known for piston slap this did not really worry me. Around 20 miles later doing some easy break in driving we (the GF and I) show up at her parents place park it for around 45min or so. On start up it does not want to build oil pressure. Check of the oil pressure switch reveals it is plugged in. Oil level is full. Several re-starts later with a quick blip of the throttle it builds oil pressure (each start was no more then 5-6 seconds in length). This same scenario plays out for 3 more times after the car has been parked. In the morning start the car no oil pressure. Put a oil pressure gauge in place of the oil pressure switch, start the car and confirm "0" psi. Call Lisa at BP Subaru and explain the situation, we agree on pull the short block out and inspect the cam journals of the heads to see if they were starved and get replacement parts on the way. Done and done, some scaring is evident on the cams and also a suspicious mark on the top of one piston, could it be the knock? See 3rd pic posted by Dynapar. Well the parts are at BP Subaru the warranty rep needs to see them be for I can receive replacements, No problem. Rep looks at it says assembly error not covered Referring to the mark on the top of the piston. I cry foul, my assembly was clean and by the book. Lisa has some of the guys pull the short block apart to press the lack of oil issue. They split the engine pulling the crank and pull two pistons leaving the two on the side of the one with the mark in the block. They find RTV every where including places there should be NONE. In oil passages at the main bearings, the oil pump on the main bearing mounting surfaces where the block halves meet. They call the rep back and he voices his decision stands. I get a call from Lisa and she says come pick up your parts there is nothing she can do. I bring the parts to a local shop not far from my work to have a second opinion and pull it the rest of the way apart. Here is what was found. Upon inspection of the journals there is some scaring not major but still. When looking at the oil pump they found the pressure relief valve to be stuck, this is why it would not build oil pressure and would also result in low oil pressure when it did produce pressure. The RTV on the oil pump would have also restricted oil flow and caused future issues when it broke free. When removing the two remaining pistons in the block they found one with a broken piston ring, same one as the one with the mark in the top of the piston. Now the missing portion of this ring matches up to the approximate size and shape as the mark in the top of the piston. Well with one more call to Lisa and her to the rep, I get his response of it was run with no oil pressure, not covered. A shame because the GF needs a new car and she likes the Forester and I am ready to put money down but if I have to eat the cost of what is clearly a defective product, that money will go to a new engine yet again. With customer service like this I don’t think there is any way I will own another Subaru product.
I should also add Lisa and Bret at Bp Subaru have been more then helpful on this ordeal and none of this should reflect poorly on them.
Thats alot of RTV. you should relay the story you told me a bout cummins, and their reman department.
bump, as I have proven beyond reasonable doubt this short block was assembled poorly and thus defective. It is in my opinion not to recommend the subaru 2.5L reman short block to any one in need of a new one as the quality is apparently sub-standard and I am pretty sure RTV in an oil passage does not meet or exceed O.E. specs as advertised . Maybe i just got the bad one from the Cummins OER line on 8-7-2007 as my test slip is dated. It is not my intent to slander or defame SOA or Cummins OER this is more of my expereince with this product and a review of the customer service I have received as a result of trying to get a defective product warranted.
so did you get the warranty... cause I would tell them you are going to post this everywhere so NO-ONE who frequents subaru forums will buy their product again if they dont honor their warranty...
not as of yet but it is posted on NASIOC at http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240471&page=26 and http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1338494 also at rs25 at http://www.rs25.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67527 and soon to be iclub It is not that I am telling people not to buy Subaru or their product/s. Nor is it my intent to slander/defam subaru/cummins as this is my personal experience with Subaru's reman short block by Cummins and it is up to the reader to take this as a for-warning that the quality may not be what is advertised and the warranty may be tough to obtain as in my case. It is up to them to decide if the want to risk that investment. This is more of a product advisory. Don't get me wrong Morrie's and subaru have the chance to get a customer for life or turn one away for life, I got what is clearly a defective item and that item has caused damage to other components like the cams and new heads by starving them for oil when the faulty oil pump failed to produce enough pressure to float them. Also the broken piston ring would have to have happened when the piston was installed in the short block would have shortened the life of this engine to well under the 3yr/36k mile warranty and that portion of broken ring has damaged my new head also. At the very least Subaru is liable for the short block assembly.
some more pics of the reman short block. I also found that Cummins OER (original equipment re-manufacture) does the reman engines for Daimler-Chrysler, Volkswagen, Subaru, Audi and Mitsubishi so if the quality is the same as this one you may want to think twice.
"great luck " does not meen they were assambled properly at the factory, just meens you haven't had one that warnted disassambly. If it were not for the bad oil pump on this one this one would not be apart at this moment. It would be apart however due to the broken ring at a some what later point. If it were not for either of these two issues I would probaly never have know this engine was suffering from low oil presure caused by all the RTV creating blockages and internal leaks. "Most: oil presure switches only need about 3-6 psi to to shut off the light. As the switch is one of the 1st things to recieve presure it could stil turn off the oil light while the rest of the engine starves for oil. I truely hope mine was just the bad egg so to speak, but knowing how assambly lines work I doubt it. In away I got lucky, my oil pump failed completly.
Well after a meeting with the rep and being denied yet again I am going to court and Subaru will never see me or my family as customers again. If you wont stand behind a $2,000 product why should I expect you to stand behind a $30,000 one. I also discovered when some one I have met for less than 5 minutes says "listen to me SON" I take a huge disrespect to that and it aggravates me very much, I did not know this and will thus take note in the future. So I am 27, average person buys a new car every 5(average) years. Say I buy my last car at 70 - 27now = 43 more car buying years. 43 / 5 = 8.6 car sales Subaru just lost from me alone, not to mention the GF/wifes car, there is another 8.6 sales lost + at least 1 for the neighbor who will not buy one after seeing my ordeal. so just out of trying to screw a guy over so a rep can look $2k better at the end of the year subaru has lost the sale of 18.6 or so car sales and all parts sales and repairs related to those cars. Good business Subaru.
Wow, it's amazing that you are getting shafted so bad. It's very obvious that you are the exact opposite of some knucklehead kid (gee, I wonder who?) and have provided a very trustworthy set of arguments.
Yea two letters from engine builders (excluding my self, been doing them for 11 years now) proving poor assembly, still denied. He also tried to tell me I don't know how RTV would affect tolerances. Sorry, I do. Here are a couple of the parts I make at work. Yes, that is a grain of rice in the back ground. The longest part with the tiny end, the part we are making is actually in the slot .012" in from the end of the small end. It is .003" X .003" with a .001" hole in it. For example, a human hair is about 0.003" thick and we are drilling a hole in it. Or another way of looking at it is the 3 parts in the back ground will fit in your spark plug gap.
THAT SUCKS! I cannot believe they denied your claim. I seriously hope you went off on this rep. explained to him that you will never deal with subaru again. ect... What is your plan for the court case? have you decided who is the correct person to go after? SOA? I dont suppose there is any way around the rep, such as talking to his superior and telling them that you dont think your claim was treated fairly and they are about to loose alot of money through potential car sales. EDIT: I see I missed your call. I was at dinner. I tried to return it but got a voicemail.
well I am not the only one who dis-likes the reman short block. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1110745
looking for tsb 02-96-05 pertains to the reman short block but don't know what about. any one care to post it if they have access to it.
