Autocross secrets.

I found this interesting little SCCA blogger. He's Canadian, but definitely knows his suspension stuff. His views on Tein, Tokico, and JIC adjustable shocks was eye-opening.

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

Also, he seems to idolize NASCAR more than I'd like to read, but he is Canadian after all.

 

he seems like a bias ******* if u ask me.

 

I have seen this guy before, he is the CNN of the suspension world. Only giving you half the information to sell you on his ideals.

 

bias is saying it lightly, apparently, if you don't drop retarded amounts of money you are getting garbage.

 

Not enough formulas for me to trust the words this guy typed, but I'll read it.

 

Haha I dont think this guy really knows what he is talking about. I think he makes stuff up that makes sense to him but doesnt have a whole lot behind it to back it up other than his great strut dyno. LMAO

 

apparently, robots and computers can tell you how to set up your car. if you listen to, talk to or are around ANY professional team, you will find out rapidly that they might use computers to get a baseline for a set up...but it all comes down to REAL world testing with the drivers.

 

trail braking, brake boosting, and left foot braking and tire pressure, all you need to know.

 

His points (bias or not) do make me think a little bit harder about suspension components though. The points he makes about adjustable suspensions was more what I was reading about. I'm not shocked that the dials don't make the same proportion of change per "click", but I was kind of hoping that they wouldn't be so dismal to the point of stiffening a suspension when dialed to "soft" settings.

 

i take what he said with a grain of salt...its interesting for sure, but i still have a hard time putting real value to it

 

Even still, he does raise some very valid points. Who here has a shock dyno to prove him wrong? How many people have done the testing and speak up refuting his points? I say this, not necessarily support it completely, but thats because I do not know otherwise from lack of my own testing.

 

oh i agree, but he only tests certain things too...then immediately shuns other parts. i know the BMW, Audi, and Lexus teams use the dynos, charts, and computer data to set up the cars initially, but they do seat time to dial it in. I guess for me personally, number crunching doesnt do it for me. Hell, in his driver's section he even talks about driver inconsistency and how it effects the car's set up basically.

 

Basically, a shock dyno is a place to start. Of course, adjustments in actual driving need to be done, but how the hell are you going to know what those adjustments are going to do? I see how having matched sets of dampners is important. Unless you absolutely know what each click will do, you are blind. Also, its pretty unnerving how much cross-talk there can be between bump and rebound adjustments.


Also, if you don't understand half of what he is saying, or reading the plots eludes you, STFU and RTFM. (said to everyone)

 

At least he's up front about it.

And FWIW, his opinions on shocks are pretty spot on.

 

He did say that he didn't have opinion on certain manufacturers because he has not tested them. I'd like to see a more complete list of the makers he does not like. From the amount of race teams that use Moton, I'd think they are decent, but he said he has not tested that brand.

 

i am not discarding what he said at all, dont get me wrong, i just think its a little biased still. he tests some damn high end set ups, but nothing that the average joe will be able to run in AutoX either. I just think his opinions and mindset is fairly limited. I respect and acknowledge the computer data and dyno research he provided tho. and i do agree that a lot of it is eye opening and interesting regardless.

 

Meh... I understand what he is talking about, and I still prefer to use my butt suspension dyno, over his bias reports.

 

Pretty much how I feel. From what I've learned watching TiC and RCE threads the past year on IWSTI shock dyno plots are a must if you're truely concerned with getting a product that's built/valved correctly for your application. Refinement after that for specific driving styles and situations is no problem.

People have tested the average joe setups, as you call them. Guess how far from ideal they were? There's a reason the cheaper sets are popular and it isn't because they are ideal. Sure there's some opinion in that article but there also seems to be a lot of solid fundimental information that most people ignore based soley on price and the need for the uber jdm drop.

Calling the article bias or crap based soley on his lack of testing low price solutions seems a bit shortsighted.

 

As I recall, he has tested the cheaper parts and made his decision that they are junk from that testing.

 

I've pretty much given up on the butt dyno, since a human is not sensative enough to feel small differences. That goes for engine tuning, suspension, etc.

He doesn't list everything he has tested over the years, which sounds quite extensive. The key here is testing. Very few people have the means and information he does, and usually its known by race teams that keep their mouth shut about it. I haven't followed the other threads at all. A link to those would be cool....


This is the exact reason I spent what I did on non-adjustable coilovers. I knew I was getting a quality product(Bilstein/H&R). If the company does the proper homework and engineering, you do not need adjustable dampeners, usually. Adjustable dampeners should not be a substitute for the proper springs for your application.

A gentleman, Jason Grahn, that used to be over on the BBS work(ed) for H&R. He told a story about being at SEMA and he caught several people from other manufacturers taking notes at his booth. :eek3:

 

Looks like he studied various options and reached his conclusions. Just because they are different from one's own research(or opinions) doesn't mean they are biased.

 

It his expression of his opinions that makes people feel he's biased. He says that most anything Japanese is crap, but I wonder if he tested the high-end components or not? It would have been nice if he documented all the models he was working with so there's a fair comparison. I've heard people claim that Tein S-Techs improve the handling of a car, when it couldn't be farther from the truth in application. Butt dynos are biased, also.

 

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1423458

Follow the links for oodles of back and forth bickering.... A lot of valid points, but as noted above, take with a grain of salt...

 

That is exactly what SEMA is for.... :roll: If they don't have a patent on it, too bad for them. It is not illegal (or immoral) to size up the competition. ...it's called "competitive analysis"

 

Well duh! That is not what I was trying to get at. I was referring to the fact that major manufacturers who "supposedly" offer quality or advanced products were taking notes from somebody else when they *should* have the capital and know-how to do their own research and developement. Apparently, they do not hire the right engineers.

People have been reverse engineering stuff forever. I know that. Obviosly its common practice to buy your competitor's products, take them apart, and see what you can/want to do better. Where did I say that those people taking notes was bad? Point that out for me because I cannot seem to find where I did.

If you want to know who was taking notes at Jason's booth I'll tell you. After hearing that, I decided that I would never buy a product from those companies. If that is what they need to do to stay competative, fine. But in all honesty it speaks volumes about what they have to offer.

 

If someone's already invented the wheel, why would you re-invent it just because you had the money and know-how?

 

its called the tweel.

 

You're missing the point. They could have just as easily ordered up a set and torn it down in their own place, but instead have to be so lame as to blatantly do their reasearch on other companies products at SEMA.

Obviously there is only so many ways to build a dampener. Want to see all those ways? Spend the few bucks to buy the stuff and tear it down. I say few because compared to the cost of tooling, bying one of each is change.

 

In a way you are right yet in a way wrong.

Butt dyno will never tell you the minor differences for base line tuning on anything. But as stated before, teams will use the dyno plots as a base line, then use the driver input for final tune. This is because despite what the computer tells us, every driver is different, requires different things, and likes a particular feel to his suspension and brakes. Even when the parts are tuned to that theoretical sweet spot, the driver may be slower because the tune is not in cohesion with their driving style.

For now, let's agree to disagree. I will still run my "garbage" japanese made parts, and laugh at people who spend 3x's as much on europian parts... all to make their bastard child of chrylser and mitsubishi the VERY BEST at auto-x :roll:. Because let's face it, Auto-x is like masturbation... it's practice for the real thing but who really wants to be a "Professional Masterbater?"

Oh yeah... I do know a little about suspension and chassis dynamics

 

Is it bad if I can't read the title of this thread without thinking of Conan?

 

I want that as a user title please

 

as long as the admin spells it right you'll not incur the Wrath of Steph.

 

zap branigan?

 

Then what, pray tell, is "the real thing"?

 

skreet racering

 

yeah... street racing is where the real action is!

 

i prefer high speed, downhill wheelchair races with elderly people.

 

i prefer the electric old people chair races.....with a lawn mower motor

 

so wait...electric...with a lawn mower engine? FAIL.

 

Very valid points. Some times I tend to over generalize. By no means do I think that all Japanese parts are garbage. In all actuality some of the companies are very smart business vise by offering budget stuff, which they sell quite a bit of. Like Tein for example. Who knows if their high-end systems are worth their money. I don't have the means to say yes or no.

Cripes, I drive a Japanese car, and get enough crap from all the hillbillies down here in Mankato. I stick to my guns though. Some of these guys down here cannot fathom a motor that has 250k on it and still has its honing on the cylinders and makes compression inthe upper 140's.


I guess that the engineer in me requires hard data to make judgements. Its hard for me to go off of people's word on stuff like this. One of my quirks I guess. Sounds like we'd have a good chat in person.



BTW, find any decent boost controllers yet

 

You apparently don't have insight into how R&D really works.... Taking notes helps develop what they want to do and what they don't want to do. There is in no way any evidence that it results in "copying". What better way is there to learn from others mistakes? ...how do you determine what others are doing so you can design something unique?

"...and he caught several people from other manufacturers taking notes at his booth." Sounds like you thought it was bad....

 

I understand that, and restated that. Taking notes is fine. Its just the fact that they did it at SEMA, which is very unprofessional. Like I said, they could have very easily bought it for themselves and taken it apart. I would like to think their engineers would loosely follow a similar code of ethics as we do here, but that is probably wishful thinking.


Again, how did I say that was bad? I merely restated what happened. Please do not twist my words around.

 

I do see your point, but I don't agree. SEMA is intended to let the manufacturers see what the trends are... If someone doesn't want to share their product with competing manufacturers, don't show it.

I understand it as I read it. If that is how I interpret it, so be it. My copy/paste didn't bring the "eek" smilie with it... Things are easily misinterpreted on the Interweb.

Anyway, nothing personal intended, even if I imply it in some of my remarks.