How many people would be interested in seeing one last rally-X this year? Thinking about December 6th or 7th for a date, site TBD. Such an event would not be part of the LoL Championship series. It would be a standalone event. It could be either a learning-oriented event, or a competitive event. If it were a "school" it probably would not be heavily instructor oriented, but rather, setting up a group of elements and practicing on those, and working together to offer constructive feedback. If it were a large enough site (say Cannon Falls 1 or Pease), we could have a couple different small sections set up for different types of elements. It would also intentionally be set up such that it would take a minimum of course workers to maintain the cones, maximizing seat time. If it were a competitive event, it would be more like our other events. I would be willing to be the event master for the event, though I would need to see if any of our safety stewards were willing to participate. Costs would be similar/same as the other events, but we would have to get enough entrants to cover costs.
This season ended way to quickly for me. I'm sure I could use the school more than the race but I'll take either one.
Sure, I'm the only one so far to vote for a competitive event. I'd like to just jump into it and see what I can do and figure out for myself first, previous to having an instructor. That worked fairly well for me in autox, and I've never been one to enjoy being instructed my first time out. On a side note, I'm working with my dad to convince my mom to change her ruling on "no more cars" to allow for a dedicated multi-x (auto, rally, snow) car, so we'll see if something comes of that. It would likely be another Talon.
Also, anyone interested in a "school" could post up the sort of thing they'd like to see. Myself I'm thinking one set-up with a little run into a sweeping turn followed by an opening slalom going into a tight left/right (or right/left) combo, to be run both ways (so also a right/left into a tightening slalom into a sweeper. The other would have something like a tight 180* or even a pin turn, and some other elements leading in/out. The idea would be to work on the things that give people the most trouble, and give people a chance to take a bunch of runs at it to try different things.
pin turns, and decreasing radius corners (similar to this weekend's RX, the first downshift corner... before the straight with the chicane. sweeping right into tight right corner) depending on the site, on/off camber sections. Oh! Like corcoran this year after the crossover. Increasing speed corner links. Bork the first one, screwed for the rest.
If I make it to this, you're welcome to use mine. Don't know if you'd like the incredible amount of slow, though. :laugh:
Likewise. I would expect that if we did it as a school, I'd probably do ride-alongs and offer some words of dubiously valued advice, and maybe some runs in other people's cars if they wanted to see how someone else would drive it. Actually, depending on if I had to haul in the trailer, I might bring the G and use that too.
I suppose it could alternately be the 13th or 14th. I just wouldn't want t push too close to x-mas, and after x-mas/new years it's ice racing season, and then you're looking at the car control school at DCTC, and then the rally season starts again, and, and, and . . . So there's kind of a little window here where we might be able to throw in an extra event, but it's not real big. I wouldn't go into this without being sure we'd get enough people to break even, which I'm guessing would be about 15.
Slow cars are better for learning, really. The fastest car we used at Team O'Neil was a N/A 2.2L 25th Anniversarry Impreza... And I passed it in a ratty old Golf at one point too :biggrin:
Granted, was thinking it'd be an awfully big change from the STI's delivery/output. Probably would be a good car to learn with, though, in this case.
I'd like to see three or four different exercise areas set up, rather than just set up a course for the whole day. 1. pin turns. Set up two pin turns just far enough apart to get into 2nd gear going between them. Maybe an optional slalom between the two ends. Imagine the corcoran site, keep one pin turn where it was, put the other one where the right hand turn was after going back through the gate. Good for practicing downshifting. 2. Oval track, or oval track with a chicane to throw off any rhythm. Good for finding the limits of tractions, weight transfer, throttle control during cornering. Tight enough to run it all in first gear, near full lock steering. 3. Braking, lane change. Run up to the top of 1st or maybe touch 2nd, then braking into a lane change, maybe followed by a turn to accelerate out of. Lot of cones to encourage keeping the car under control. Maybe run these as self marshalled exercises in the morning. Three run groups, every half hour you move to another exercise. I like the idea of repeating one or two elements over and over. In the afternoon they can be linked together to make a complete rallyx course and do some timed runs to put the pieces together.
sign me up...I'm there! :yumyum: I'd rather see/attend a rally x school of some sort. I would benefit a lot more from learning rather than competing. I'm confident you could count MNSOC to provide food and beverages for this.
As long as this isn't the first weekend in December, theres a good chance I could actually go to one of these.
I voted for a competetive event but i think i changes my mind. i think it would be cool to have a "school" of sorts, i would be willing to be there to help by driving others cars if they want Oh and i would vote for the 13 or 14, the 6th is the First event in the winter road rally series!
YOU ARE....and the last time I seen you behind the wheel of a car......:laugh: I'd say you NEED a school:laugh:........
I'd do this event - whether "school" or competition - if I'm not out of town that weekend, but the chances are I won't be around. I love the idea of a class, but I counted this whole year of RX as a learning period (my prepared car in modified class).
There seems to be decent interest, certainly on the side of the "school" idea, so I'll talk to a few people and see how feasible this would be from an organizer standpoint. Keep the feedback coming though, please.
Ditto! Though I think I could learn from Mr. Beck, too, maybe Jay..if he were to come; Mark H, too. Then again, Mr. Utecht made it very clear that I have a lot to learn Brent is a good teacher too.
it's right in the middle of exam time for me but i think i could make it out... school would be good. boss is not ready for too much beating-on yet
This. I need more real practice. Competing is fun, but it's tough to learn in that environment. I really like the dual pin-turn idea. I have a lot of trouble fighting my car around pin turns. Carl, lemme know if you need help getting your car up and running, and if it doesn't happen you can use mine. I'd like to use your wheels, though, as it's now officially winter and i don't want to rip up my snow tires. EDIT: ArcticWolf: your car isn't slow. Not for these types of courses, anyway. N/A torque FTW
An open dirt or gravel lot with test "sections" would be cool. It would give people the chance to approach the same corner types in a variety of ways without being stuck in a timed lap.
My only concerns with individual sections would be... 1) marshalling traffic into and out of them 2) rutting up the section and needing to maintain or move the obstacle 3) Feedback - the only way to really know if you are getting any faster is with timing feedback... providing this for several individual corners gets to be expensive, tricky, and messy. Also, keep in mind that fastest line through 2 identical obstacles on 2 different course designs will be different depending on the obstacles preceding and following them. In theory it's a great idea tho. It would be like football practice where you get to really focus on specific skills and techniques. Anyway, I plan to be there to volunteer... I'll participate if I can work out a car to drive.
The way I envision it would be that we'd split up into two or three groups (based on number of volunteers mostly). One group ould drive one section, another a different section and the third( if necessary) would staff the sections. Total number of mini sections would depend on the space and the potential layouts. I could see as many as four useful ones at Cannon Falls. Run each car through the mini course, turn them around and run them back. Sections would be designed to be useful experience both directions. Try to arrange it so that people sitting in their cars can watch the people before and after them run. Time with old-fashioned stopwatches. Takes two people working each section. Clipboards or whiteboards for times. Ideally have a third person, with more experience, watching the drivers. After running each way, stop for a few minutes and have the people in that group communicate with each other about what they saw & did, with addtional feedback from the person observing. It would need to be a collaborative learning experience. Cones get picked during this downtime, not during the runs (perhaps we make people pick their own cones?). Yes, we would have to change the elements as the day went on, unless we get a really good hard freeze before then (not too likely). That's the nature of the game, and I don't seen any way around it. Even if we didn't change a thing, the course would change of it's own accord as the surface lost or added grip. Yes, rallycross is all about fining a way to link elements in the best way, while maximizing traction, and not finding the "prefect" way to run a specific element. But knowing what the fastest way around a specific element lends itself to finding the fastest way to blend multiple elements. I would also expect us to do a short "classroom" session at the beginning of the day, where we would talk about some general concepts, over lunch take questions, and talk about what people have seen to that point. Maybe a little talk about some advanced techniques, which may go beyond rallycross. I do really like the idea of linking the sections together for a full-length course at the end of the day. It would be somewhat dependant on how the course held up, however. As to some of the more freeform elements some people have suggested, while it's a good idea in general, it wouldn't fit well with the sanction of a rallycross. I think that something like that might be much better suited for the MNSOC Car Control event later in the winter. And I'm not looking to duplicate the effort that's going into that, I'm looking at more rallycross specific skills, which would make things like a lane change or avoidance manuver less appropriate for this particular event. I think that those would be great things to do at DCTC.
zomg SOLD! I'll free up my schedule... now I'm counting on you to show :biggrin: I'm not promising anything... but if I'm decent at anything, it's transferring knowledge. I think that between the MNSOC officers, their significant others and children (Dan, we are expecting at least moral support from Colin), and the MNSOC members, we could cut down on the need for drivers to volunteer. A day long event gets taxing enough when you are just driving. Throw in some running around and dodging cars and that's just an accident waiting to happen imho. I think I full course "unpack your experiences and apply what you learned" session would be very beneficial. Great idea. Thanks for your support on the MNSOC DCTC car control event.
So, regardless of what the actual elements are in the course or exercise layouts, here's what I would like to get from a school vs a regular rallyx competition. 1. more seat time than at a competition 2. instructor time, both 'classroom' time and in car instruction/critiques. The amount of both kinda depends on the cost too. For the same $40 entry fee I would expect the same amount of driving/working as at an event. As the costs goes up I would like more instructor input and more time driving (vs working the course). I think the large cannon falls site could work well with setting up two smaller courses too and split into a couple groups to run them. Maybe spend the morning driving them with no timing, just keep the cars moving through the courses as quickly as possible to maximize driving time and have instructors hop into different cars and give input. Then in the afternoon do some timed runs. I don't think every run during the day needs to be timed. Overall I think this is a great idea and I'm really looking forward to it.
Thanks for the kind words, Chong. it means a lot to me. To your credit, you've shared with me the single most useful advice in terms of driving philosophy (hint: fwd/rwd/awd all-in-one). So thanks for that. We can expect you to be at this event, right?
I'm currently under house arrest and detention after work. So I'll see if my probation officer will allow me some time away for good behavior. I would like to join you guys out there. I could use some insight in this area from more experienced drivers.
