Looking to purchase my first handgun. And want to know a few local places to go shooting during the weekends. Anyone know of an outdoors range that doesn't include being a club member? I will be picking up a Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm. Any thoughts on that particular handgun also? Thanks
I like Metro Gun Club in Blaine. I don't care for Bill's (Robbinsdale) due to the unfriendly staff and some of the clientele that patronize that place. To be more specific, it make me nervous to be a few lanes down from someone rapid firing a handgun "gansta style." Bill's in Circle Pines is okay too. I have no experience with that gun, but if you're buying it new, I would suggest picking up a used Sig 226 in 9mm (if that is your cal. of choice). It will be about the same price. At least shoot one (rent). I would also ask what if your main purpose for the gun? Target only, home protection, carry, etc? What do you like about the S&W?
I'll keep that in mind. Mainly for target and home defense. I like the S&W because of the ergonomics. Just feels good/comfy in my hands. Recoil is not soo bad either.
fitment is key, glad you've tried it. You'd be surprised how many people don't. Based on the home defense usage, I would recommend a 40 cal. Yes it will cost you a bit more to shoot at the range, but I think it's a much better all around round, if you're planning to have one gun. It's a nice balance between velocity and stopping power. Don't get me wrong you can still get the job done with a 9mm. If you do go the 9mm route or regardless, for home defense, the best thing you can do is buy a pump 12 ga. shotgun. A nice composite one will cost you ~$300. They suggest loading it with progressively stronger loads, so load some 00 buck shot first, then maybe a slug, and load some bird shot last (see below for reason). A lot of home defense experts have written books on the value of this. Two reasons: 1. the pump sound alone will send more petty thieves running back out the door. 2. If you do have to use it, you won't kill your neighbors in additions to the perp. (much lower velocity, but still have the stopping power)
M&P's are sweet, 9mm is fine. a mag of 9mm holes in someone is gonna suck. Dont let the "stopping power" argument waver your decision too much. a bullet is a bullet, just keep the shot placement is even remotely on target. Good luck on the purchase. there are a few gun threads around the forum you should check out too. post up what you end up getting. -Dan
Thanks guys. I will keep this all in mind. Well, reasoning behind not getting a shotgun. My brother already has one and don't use it much, so I'll just convince him to hand me down!!! Just went and tried out the Glock 19 and XD. The Glock felt a little big in the hands, the XD felt good. But just doesn't compete with the S&W in the comfortability and confidence.
+1 for Metro Gun Club in Blaine. Staff are friendly, it's usually very clean, and better clientele than either one of the Bill's locations. S&W is almost always a solid choice. I picked up a 9mm Beretta last summer and liked it a lot better than my S&W, it feels lighter and has less kickback.
On choosing my pistol, I opt for a single stack mag since my hands are a lot smaller. I could hold the pistol easier. I tried glocks, Springfields, Beretta, Sigs, and Rugers, and I currently carry Kimber CDP II. As for my home defense, I have a Mossberg 500 with bucks and slug mixed rounds. Also to mention that for compact guns, I find it easier to shoot caliber size in this order. 9, 45, 40.
Sorry, but the bad advice in this post outweighs the good. OP, if you're looking at getting an M&P (I have one myself, great gun with a few small issues out of the box) I also recommend getting either the .40 or the .357SIG model. If you have either of those, you have the option of picking up a factory 9mm barrel from MidwayUSA for ~80-90 bucks shipped, get some 9mm mags and you can run either caliber. I have a .357SIG M&P with 9mm and .40S&W barrels as well. That being said, I'm not a fan of the .40S&W round. I think it answered a question that didn't need to be asked, and doesn't really do anything that a duty grade 9mm won't do just fine. I'm not a fan of the .40S&W recoil characteristics, but recoil is subjective and your results may vary. The main issue that I have with the M&P is the stock trigger, but Apex makes some great replacement parts that will have you up and running in no time. No matter what round you choose, practice as much as you possibly can. When it comes to shotguns, there is so much bad advice out there from "experts" that it'd be downright comical if it wasn't on such a serious topic. Birdshot should never, EVER be used as a defensive round option. It won't do much other than injure them unless you're putting the barrel up against them and pulling the trigger. Also, if you're that worried about overpenetration why would you even have a slug in the loading mix? Mixing your defensive loading is a bad idea, better to stick with one load and practice with it so you're familiar with it under stress. If you want to have an alternate round loading, get a shell carrier and have them ready if needed. Also, the "rack the slide and the burglars will just run away" is a crock of ****. Sure, it may scare some off, but you've also just given up your position and let them know that you're armed, or you're just making noise with an empty shotgun in the hopes that they'll run away. If they press the issue you had better be able to recycle that slide in a hurry. Also, you had better make sure you practice with that shotgun under true stress induced conditions because I've seen plenty of trained people short shuck a pump gun under stress and then look at it funny when it fails to go bang. A 12 ga pump is an acceptable choice for a home defense gun, but there are better options out there including an AR with a good duty load for ammo. As far as ballistics go, unless you're living in an apartment building with tissue paper for walls the overpenetration issue is largely a non factor and can be mitigated by consistent training under stress to put your rounds on target. When it comes down to it, if you're using a firearm for self defense you're not shooting to warn or to wound. You're deploying deadly force at that point, and you will have to justify your actions in a court of law. If I have to pull the trigger, I'm sure as hell not wanting my first round to be birdshot, but instead something I know will put someone down in a hurry, and if it doesn't, it's going to make them wish that it had.
Brian thanks for pointing that out. I'm probably wrong, though I thought I read that in a Massad Ayoob book a while ago. Anyway, under 5 yards or so, the shot is in a solid mass, just beginning to open up. Regardless you're right, after more careful thought I would probably opt for a mix of buckshot and slugs. I think a well thought out home defense plan and an informed family is equally as important so you don't kill them with shotgun blasts going though walls. I should have included a disclaimer in my post that one should most definitely do there own research before buying and committing to something as important as a home defense gun and plan. After all the internet is full of idiots with opinions like me.
I'm not saying you're an idiot, just a lot of bad info out there that sounds good. Sorry if I came off as calling you one. I'd recommend going with 00 Buckshot as your primary, although #4 will work in a pinch. If you need/want slugs, I'd run a sidemount shell carrier and have those available in case you need them. Like you said, at your average HD distance you're not getting much expansion and the recoil effects from buckshot are more conducive to follow up shots than slugs unless you're either well versed with them or running a recoil reducing stock like the Mesa Tactical or Knoxx stocks. You bring up a great point, a family plan is the most important part of any HD discussion.
Nope didn't take it that way at all. You were respectful as usual. I'm was self deprecating and trying to emphasize the need to put in serious time doing one's own research from trusted sources.
This. This right here is one of the main reasons that I will probably not ever own a fire arm for the purpose of home defense. In addition, have you ever had anyone break into your home? Has anyone in this thread (or forum for that matter) had someone break into your home? If so, were you actually home and were you aware they were there? I'm not about to get on my soap box (because quite honestly, I'm not that informed on the laws, nor really into guns), but I still feel as though owning a fire arm for the purpose of home defense is silly (ok, now I'm sure someone will enlighten me with 20 different stories on how a fire arm in their home saved their life...blah blah, this isn't 20/20 or Dateline.) (EDIT: maybe I should clarify...using "home defense" as an excuse to justify your toy/hobby is silly.) Now, owning a fire arm for hunting, going and ripping shots into a target, and owning one for the hobby and enjoyment of firearms, have at it! I've often times pondered buying a hand gun but I have enough expensive hobbies as it is
I didn't buy my guns for home defense. ZOMBIES! its comming. oh and a ninja sword for when you run out of ammo.
While I haven't had anyone break into my home personally, I've seen enough stories of it happening or of people who've been assaulted or killed by home invaders. When I was a police dispatcher in Bloomington I took a couple of calls from people who had people breaking into their house and the level of fear in their voices was like nothing I'd ever heard before. I refuse to put myself or my wife in the position where they may be at the mercy of somebody else. I'd rather have the option to defend my family available than have nothing better than harsh language and perhaps a Louisville Slugger. I own guns because I like to own guns, but I also accept the fact that they can be used to defend my family if needed and spend time each week training with them in a formal setting to both improve my skills but also to be able to perform under stress and put rounds on target no matter what. Think of it as a track day for my trigger finger.
Absolutely, I totally respect that. I think you might be one of the exceptions though in terms of your experience and training. For me, I better hope that I can sprint to my car real quick for a fast getaway...all those track days better be useful for something! Anyway, sorry to take this thread way off topic. MOSubie, good luck on your search and be responsible!
I know you said you didn't want the twenty stories, but yes I have had this happen. It happened when I was visiting my mom here in MN for a summer back in jr high. She lived in a nicer apt in a quiet area of white bear lake. Two guys broke in while we were both home, knowing she was a single mom and would be somewhat defenseless. I'll leave out the graphic details. But that haunts me still to this day, and now that I'm a mom and it's just my son and I. I like knowing that if the need should arise I at least have a last resort option to protect my kid. Knock on wood hopefully I'll never have to use it and it can keep collecting dust aside from when I drag it out for target practice. But everyone has the mindset that because they live in a nice neighborhood, have a dog, or whatever that it won't happen to them. If my mom had a gun back then it might have saved some gruesome memories. That's just my two cents, I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion on guns. I'm just saying that the need to use one for home defense can happen to anyone. Different strokes for different folks.
people are crazy, people with guns and a grudge are crazier. taking the life of a human/threatening the life of a human with a gun would have created a fair share of gruesome memories for a normal person on a lighter note, training and mindset are the most important things in this conversation. the hardware you train with is up to the individual. be it guns, fast cars, fists or the one of the best choices, words. when in doubt, call 911 and know where the hell you live when you are talking to dispatch.
I can't emphasize what Dan said enough. When you're talking to the dispatcher, you need to get all of the pertinent information to them as well as you can under the circumstances. Your answers are going to help dictate how quickly help gets to you. Personally, I'd probably hand the phone off to my wife and cover the stairs if the situation permitted, but it may come down to defending yourself first and asking dispatch afterwards for an ambulance and a cleanup crew. Also, training is vitally important because with the adrenaline dump that comes with a situation like that your fine motor skills are going to go right out the window. Learning how to actually move and use a gun rather than just going to the range and sending a few rounds downrange at a paper target sitting 10 feet away is crucial if you want to be able to defend yourself.
Our home was broken into a few years back. Although I wasn't home at the time both my parents were. They didn’t hear or see the man that came into our house, but a few hours later when I arrived home it was clear that some one had been inside. It was a disgusting feeling that I never want to feel again. Luckily everyone was safe, but I think what if had been different. So now we are prepared if something does happen. You should always expect the best, and plan for the worst. A gun never solves problems but could save your life. MOSubie that’s a great firearm. I looked at that before I got my XD.
Thanks guys! Just waiting for a buddy to make up his mind about when we're going to take our conceal and carries and then off to the shop to pick up Smith and Wesson M&P!!! Or else I could just go to the sheriff's office and get a permit too. I can't imagine how the situation would feel and taking someone's life. But I'm pretty confident in my decision if the situation arises. My buddy is also trying to get a job as a cop right now and he's been helping me with some techniques and what not about self-defense.
Depending on where you live, we use Bill's in Hudson (indoor) as well as the Hudson Rod, Gun and Archery club (outdoor).
