so i was talking to a subaru tech and asking about putting synthetic fluids in my tranny and diff, (05 impreza 2.5rs, 5spd) and he said that that is not recomended and it could void my warranty. he told me the stuff subaru uses had synthetic additives, but not to use full synthetic. is there a reason for this? i was told by another tech that subaru DOES suggest using synthetic tranny fluid. who is right? does subaru just say this because they do not make a synthetic? or is there a mechanical reason? my car is mostly stock, at 30k, and has full synthetic 5w-30 motor oil. i was thinking about using redline full synthetic gear oil. i have heard a lot of good things about it.
A automotive manufacture can not void your warranty for use of synthetic oils or aftermarket oils, providing the oil meets the specific standards they require for that application. Those standards are rated by SAE (society of automotive engineers) and the API (American petroleum institute). The manufacturer Can select/choose the SAE viscosity/s that is suitable for the engine like 10W30, 5W30, 0W20, ect.... and transmission oil like 85W140, 85W90, 75W90, ect... Likewise they can also set a minimum API service rating they require, examples: SJ, SL, SM engine oils and GL-4, GL-5 for gear oils. Example(taken from a baja owners manuel for the engine): A SAE viscosity rating of 5W30 API classification of SL And for the manual transmission A API classification of GL-5 the SAE viscosity varies depending on the applicable temperature out side, DEG Fahrenheit for straight weight oils are 35deg+ =90 -20deg+ =85W below 85deg =80W And multi-viscosity oil of 75W90 is used across all tempratures. This info can be found on the bottle of oil in what is known as the API donut http://www.bardahl.ca/images/API.GIF or in the newer API starburst http://g6civcx.napalm.net/tech/images/apicert.jpg These also list the SAE rating for viscosity in the center of the donut. For API rating on engines the two letter rating code is as follows. API rating of SL. S- certifies it for use gasoline engines L- certifies it for a given grade or standard This leter changes as new standards come out. SH is superseded by SI and SI is superseded by SL and so on. So "SM' can be used in place of "SL" but not the other way around. Diesels/small engine oils are done similarly but the "S" is replcaed with a "C". http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/EngineOilGuide2006.pdf Now none of this means that the automotive manufacturer can not require you to use a friction modifier like GM's syncromesh. Some more good info can be found at the following links. http://www.timken.com/lubrication/faq.asp http://www.smartsynthetics.com/frequently_asked_questions_index.htm http://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/warranty_laws_learn_the_federal.htm http://www.api.org/ http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/EngineOilGuide2006.pdf http://www.synlube.com/apisaoil.htm
I highly recommend you NOT put full synthetic in a Subaru 5-Speed. I put Royal Purple Synthetic in my '02 WRX and it was horrible. I couldn't even shift it into 1st gear from a stop w/o revmatching. If you didn't rev match, any shift turned into a flurry of grinds and frustration, and forget about downshifting with it. Use The Cocktail, it does wonders for the tranny.
i think i would use the cocktail, it seems to help with what i need, which is getting it into reverse(it sticks) would the cocktial void the waranty? i heard it might.
It all depends on the condition of your tranny. I just changed my tranny and rear diff with redline and it works fine. Shifts a little betterm but i stillcant get it into first untill i am almost at a compleat stop. I have an 02 with 60k.
Fresh tranny fluid is always going to feel better than old, which is what I found when I put Red Line full synth in my tranny. However, it's starting to be a little sticky at times, so I think it's time to try the cocktail. Keep in mind that Red Line produces a 75w90 and a 75w90NS. One is for the tranny, the other goes in the rear diff. Don't mix them up. In the spirit of teaching a man to fish, go and look at the Red Line website for the answer to which one goes where. My online research leads me to believe that Royal Purple has nothing for our trannies, but their motor oil and fluid for the rear diff are just fine. This is anecdotal; I haven't used Royal Purple myself. Stuart.
^^^ that is typical with 99% of them... mine goes into 1st under 20mph most times but closer to the 20mph it can be hit and miss.... besides you shouldnt go into first anyways while moving.. 2nd should be fine...
that's easier said than done, I can't tell you how many times I am in parking lots or in trafic where I shift to second and then slow below the practical speed to use 2nd, so then I should stop to hit first. That just doesn't sound right to me. Am I the only one who feels this way?
didnt say you HAD to, but with the subaru gbox you may want too... but hey if you dont care how long your gears and synchros last then go.. slam it into 1st I was merely saying I usually dont have too many issues when I am under 15mph when I go to 1st.. every so often it may grind... you have to remember in ANY vehicle 1st gear is to initiate MOMENTUM from a stop, not to be moving and go down into it....
i dont care about downshifting to first. it is getting it into reverse that is giving me problems. i have to go from 1st ot reverse to get it into gear, and half the time it takes a few tries.
Mine does this, too. Put it back in neutral, let the clutch out, blip the throttle and it should slide in just fine. Isn't the 1st gear downshift problem due to not having synchros on 1st ? I thought I heard that somewhere, but I can't recollect where. Stuart.
1st gear definately has synchros, I don't know of any oem vehicle that doesn't use synchros on forward gears. Reverse on the other hand, doesn't have synchros in the 5 speed. As for needing to downshift into first, I know plenty times you'd need to put it in gear before completely stopping. Stop and go traffic for instance. Another reason would be for an emergency when you need to stomp on it fast to get out of a situation in which you'd be T-boned, etc where 2nd wouldn't move you out of the way quick enough.
if i do this the gears grind. and first gear only has one synchro in the 5mt i believe. opposed to 2(?) in the 6mt
Sorry, I was talking about not being able to get reverse. Going down to 1st while moving is bad. My humble little NA RS will quite happily set off from a dead stop in 3rd, so if you're already moving, 2nd should be sufficient. It really doesn't like setting off in 4th, but will do it with sufficient coaxing. Stuart.
when i put syn in my trans the 1-2 grind i had turned into a 1-2-3-4 grind, right now im running straight GM syncromesh. now no grinds at all
I personally wouldn't suggest slamming the tranny into first or even giving it firm pressure, the design of the 1st syncro is crap, in fact the 5MT in my WRX is the largest peice of crap manual that I have ever driven. my trans was rebuilt under waranty at ~46k (I bought the car with 40k). If you ask anyone from the dealer they will tell you that the use discription of the trans says that it should not be shifted into 1st at any speed exceeding 0 MPH. Check if you don't beleive me. I run a modified scottys cocktail and the trans is now much better than it was (it would grind after sitting out of gear at an ATM). For people with reverse problems I would check the shift boots before anything else especially on a pre 02 car, those boots are getting old and stiff and somtimes depending on the individual linkage design this can cause problems. I would also pay attention to how I park the car, did I use the parking brake, and is it still on? Also did it make a sharp turn into the parking space and set the p-brake and leave the trans in gear (the drivetrain can retain energy from tight corners and effectivly lock you out of reverse). I have had instances with my AWD Grand Cherokee where I pulled in fast and sharp and had a hard time shifting out of park without turnign the steering wheel to dissipate some of the built up tourqe. My personal opinion would be that the synthetic would help but is not the whole answer for reverse issues.
Unless you have an STi which calls for 90w for the rear diff. I've read enough stories about full synthetic not working for people that I won't be taking the chance come fluid change time. Either the cocktail or extra-s for the tranny and Subaru LSD for the diff.
as far as the grinding goes when going into 1st gear as others have stated it is normal wear and tear on the syncros. Which typically is a brass/bronze thrust washer in most trannys. As you shift into gear these syncros rub on each other and match the speed of the two gears to prevent them from grinding as the engage. As the syncros wear there is less friction to bring the two gears up to this matched engagement speed, thus taking a longer time for you to shift into gear. This is when guys that just get frustrated and start jamming it into gear and only results in them wearing faster or a bent shift fork. Did you use Royal Purple's Max Gear gear oil or their Synchromax manual trans oil? There is a difference. Most places around here don't carry syncromax. As for the rev matching that is part of owning a manual, you shouldn't let the syncros do all the work. They are designed to assist in matching the gear speed not do it for you. A full synthetic is fine AS LONG AS IT HAS the appropriate friction modifiers in it. Remember syncros need friction to work. Not all full synthetics are bad. I have been mudding jeeps for years, which is one of the hardest things you can put a manual tranny through. Unlike pavement when you shift your wheels want to stop. A few years ago A friend of mine gave me some "NEO" synthetic to try in our trannys. Did wonders, still a few bent shift forks now and then but far fewer trannys are being rebuilt due to bad syncros. Looks like some Subaru rally drivers already use it too. http://www.turbomagazine.com/features/0305tur_subaru_wrx_gear_set/index.html
Does anyone here run Neo? I've been debating off and on whether or not to spend the Cash to do it. Every time I get close to a tranny fluid change I contemplate it and then either go all Subaru (the new synth blend stuff) or full synth (AMSOil, in the past). I've got time to do it... AutoZone (New Hope, 36th and Winnetka) had the Synchromesh and one bottle of Hypoy-c. Almost bought them but held off.
I usually have it around the garage, but a a fellow jeeper took my last three quarts last week and I have yet to buy more. I don't usually buy it till I can do a group buy with a few guys. I can let you know when we might do it again.
hence my sarcasm with the sentence in front of that statement... internets.. people.. read whole paragraph for clarity and sarcasm <--- another hint :biggrin:
Well, I'm going to take the plunge and buy it. See my GB thread because I need some input before I order. Link to GB Thread
I just dumped both diffs on my 02 auto and put in full synthetic...its what i had around the garage. Should I be concerned? No issues at all over the past couple of weeks. Car as 67k on it.
Neither of these examples represents a NEED. I have never needed to shift into first in stop and go traffic, unless....it is STOPPED :roll: If you think you will avoid a t-bone in 1st, that you couldn't in 2nd you need to think about that a bit. If you were already in 2nd, you have already been hit by the time you have shifted into 1st and got back on it. I do find it strange how much that bothers people (not just you Wrxspeed), I didn't even notice it until it became such a big complaint on NASIOC. I had to go out and try if for myself because I never even noticed it. I can get in while still moving, but I'm talking rolling through a stop sign type speeds.
No reason to worry, like Chin said in more words then I, it really comes down to driving style. Some people like to jam gears like they are running a race everyday, thats fine they can pay the repair bills like the racers do. How many thousands of manual transmission cars are on the road that have 100K + miles on them and have never had the fluid changed. Think of all the debris in those trannys floating around, they shift fine. Forcing it into gear is where the majority of the wear takes place.
Nope, don't worry about it. The auto is a completely different beast than the 5-6mt's. I have been running amsoil in my car for over 35k. Russ
