I want to try to get this going this year. It was something I would have liked to have seen last year, but the first Ice Race last year sucked. With the weather how it is currently, and Rich's Ice Report, it would appear that we are in for a good year at the races. Here's what I'm thinking, and before it goes official, I'd like to run it by people that do more motorsports things than I have time for. And the community as a whole. Here's what the 4 hours of in-car captivity per day has brewed in the mushy clump located in my skull.... Classes: NAS Class: Naturally Aspirated All Season. Basically, any N/A Subaru with All Season tires. NAW Class: Naturally Aspirated Winter Tire. Any N/A Subaru with Winter tires. ST20A and ST25A: Stock turbo all season, broken down into displacement. Stock turbo for the model installed. All other mods acceptable. ST20W and ST25W: Same as above but with Winter Tires MOD-TA: Modded Turbo cars on All Seasons. Any turbo charged car that has a turbo that was not OEM. MOD-TW Same as above, with winters OPEN: Cars compete regardless of mods, tires, or induction type Might be too many 'classes' but I want to keep it fair.
imo, too many classes for how much organized driving will actually take place. hp can be pretty much thrown out the window on the ice (1st ice race last year was dominated by silver n/a wagons lol). in fact, I would go so far as to say we only split it up by tires as it's hard enough to keep timed runs going quickly and efficiently over the day. if we had a set system with computer timing, immediate recovery of stuck vehicles, and people committed to organized racing for a full day it would definitely be worth pursuing more detailed rules. as it is, I'd say all season/street tires, winter/snow tires, ice racing/studded categories and then focus on organizing timing and scoring
i must say though, I am extremely happy you've been thinking about this jason!! I'm hoping we can get the actual "racing" time to be a bit more organized this year. i can run camera duties or I can help with timing/scoring/starting
That's the key. How many total participants and how many people will end up in a class by themselves? Also, is "stock" bone stock? If so, no stock vehicles would fall under the winter tire category. What is "fair?" As in, what mods actually make you faster on ice? I think you're onto the right track with separating classes by tire. Beyond that I wouldn't worry about displacement at all, and would only maybe consider mods as another way to breakdown classes. Matter of fact, most big turbo set ups (depending on course and driver) will probably end up hurting your times anyway. At most, I would think something like this might work: MA - Modified All-season tire MW -Modified Winter tire TAS - Turbo All-season tire; Stock TWS - Turbo Winter tire; Stock NAAS - Naturally Aspirated All-season tire; Stock NAWS - 2 bottles y0 Stock = stock except for wheels, tires, and comfort items (stereo, seats, etc...) If you can get that down to 3-4 classes, that's even better imho.
I had been working on some software last year for timing. I could resurrect that and improve/change/redo it if you guys think it would help. old thread IMO, as far as classes, don't worry about how to divide the cars up, just collect the info on all the cars and then you can slice-and-dice the results many different ways once it's all done. It seems the only real factor that affects things is studded/non-studded anyway.
Three classes pretty much covers everything needed. All season Winter tire Studded tire HP means almost nothing on the ice. Soft factory suspension is better than most aftermarket stiff suspensions on the ice. More compliance = more traction. Keeps things simple and eliminates "but he has 2 more horsepowerz than me, we shouldn't be competing with each other. All that needs to be said is here are the classes if you don't like them, tough noogies. I'll talk to Vector this weekend about timing software to keep things organized. Worst case scenario a clip board and a couple stopwatches and then transfer it to an Excel doc. later that day. If everyone is OK with it I can take the lead on this and with a little help I think I can put together a smooth and safe way to handle the timed runs.
Nailed it. I have no easy answers for you. I had something mostly written, but I have zero idea where it is right now, and it's not really suitable at this point. SCCA LoL uses an Excel spreadsheet, and they click on a cell, then push a button on the electronic timer and the timer autofills the cell. I'm interested in what prezawagon has written, and how it could be used for our RallyCross stuff.
I've seen some setups that use timing software for a slot car track, a serial port, and photo sensors. The photo sensors are used with IR LEDs but you could easily adapt it to a laser pointer bolted onto a stake.
Ding ding ding, this is exactly what I was going to suggest as well. Also, I'll bring a laptop with car-power cord, if we need it.
Also, I agree on keeping the tires as the class separator...or as Joel said, just record times and figure it out later.
There's a link to a download in the other thread. I think I've made some minor tweaks since then, I'll compile a new version and upload it. One thing I need is to put a higher-resolution timer in it, but 1-second accuracy is probably within the margin of error for manual timing anyway. I want to think of more improvements to the UI so that the software can be used with as little focus on the laptop screen as possible.
Also, we may want to get volunteer "workers" first, as I sure as heck would rather drive and get runs in vs sit in a car and record times.
I don't mind running timing for the day. I can get some timed runs in at the end of the day. Sara can give me a hand and I will swap with someone for a few timed runs of my own.
I actually just d/l it and fired it up while you were typing It looks like it would work pretty well for this event. We need to do something different for RallyCross though, as the timing is done to the 1/1000th with the electronic timers now and direct data entry is key. Even handheld, you should be able to get (relative, not absolute) resolution in the area of 1/100 sec with a good person running the stopwatch, so going to 1/10 resolution is a given if it's a real competition, and 1/100 sec isn't a bad idea.
Well, after a quick look, Joel's timing software is pretty good. No way it's going to just quick integrate with a lap timer, though. Guess it depends on how accurate we want to get, a mouse click, or an automatic timing device... If we're really competitive and have some ties or something, we can probably just do something simple like a 1-lap runoff.
Count me out of head to head driving on a slippery track. Sorry, even though my car is a toy car, I'm not going to bash it around an iced over track with any of you knuckleheads.
From what I'm reading about the post I made above about LapTimer2000, it can take information from a serial/parallel or game port. That site also shows pin-outs for those ports for wiring up a photosensor. I can get the photosensor and 9pin serial port and wire from RadioShack, and I'd imagine they'd have laser pointers there. We're talking maybe 30 bucks in materials to make a laser finish line that integrates with that LapTimer2000 software.
this^^^^ :laugh: Even though this is my first year, I say tire classes seem to be the way to go. I've read enough to know that HP doesnt matter and tires do. Just my 2. -Tony
Maybe those that wish to do so can carry the timing device and laptop out after hours and do...uh..."influenced laps."
For reference: PhotoResistor 2.99 9pin serial connector 1.99 Figure about 10 to 12 bucks in wire Another 10-12 bucks for shielding and weather stripping. Add 6 bucks for a small cheap laser pointer. And then some aluminum or steel square tube stock to elevate the sensor out of the snow. Figure 10 bucks there too. I have a hammer to pound the stakes into the ground And LapTimer2000 is free software. http://www.gregorybraun.com/LapTimer.html
From what I can tell that software requires one sensor area. The start/finish line would be the same spot. This would limit us to only one car on the track at a time. Although slower to get through cars it would work beautifully. The other issue I can see is it would still require us to manually input the times into a spreadsheet.
dibs on winning NAW class haha jk. i will say this tho, power does play a big roll if there is any decent length straits. say like the last corner into strait at the second ice race. if there is minimal "long" straits, then i would say yea tire only classes would cover it.
Well, it would allow two finish lines if we wanted. We could make the lap an un-closed track, meaning the start line and finish line isn't eh same spot, then have a left finish and a right finish. You get directed to a specific finish line before you start. It would look like my stupid picture below. The green line would be the start line, the red line through those two lanes would be finish line. Before a driver starts their "lap" you would tell them "You are to finish in the left gate." Left Gate would be lap time 1, right gate would be lap time 2 on the LapTimer2000 software. I'd need to get two lasers and two photoresistors, so figure double the price listed...minus the 9pin connector, as we'd just use 4 pins instead of two for reading lap time.
Ok, I see what you are saying Boomer, it needs a line cross to start and a cross to finish it. Hold on, I have another idea similar to what I just said but slightly modified...
limit it to six classes.. stock turbo non-winter tires stock turbo winter tires modified turbo non-winter tires modified turbo winter tires n/a non-winter tires n/a winter tires dividing it out even further between 2.0 and 2.5 is just to much. i think the above would work well. EDIT: just actually read the thread...my brackets are similar to idgets.
Yeah, the software was originally meant for dealing with the lacking of timing hardware. But, I could certainly look at changing it or writing something new.
Small point, but you'd want to have both pointers on the outside or both on the inside, and vice versa for the photodiodes. keeps them from interfering with each other. It also assumes people will be under control enough to go through the correct lane. Which would be an issue, even when people aren't three sheets...
To add to the suggestion, I'd recommend a track like the first track back in 06. We had a long straight where the start finish was, and everyone sorta parked along the side of it, it had a nice 2.5-3foot snow mound for keeping the out of control guys in check and not careening into the group of spectators. A nice tight 90* turn before the final straight would keep people in check for hte final romp through the finish. Also, I know about the photodiodes facing away, it was a quick sketch in paint to show the basics.
Joel, I dont know your programing skills but if we put together sensors could you write a program that would work with external imputs.
There aren't any moving parts, so the big issue would be the destruction of the sensor mounts. The laser pointer and the photoresistor are just kinda there, with the resistor tethered to a pair of wires. As long as I leave alot of slack on the wires, it should be ok. We could even so far as to burying the wires in a slot of ice to keep them safe. I wouldn't be opposed to just leaving the wiring there and keeping hte resistor, lasers and connectors.
One photo cell for the start and one for the finish. Use those for imputs. If you can make it handle multiple cars at a time it would be even better. I know I'm over simplifying but I know nothing when it comes to programing.
I can weld up some steel stans that people would think twice about hitting for the sensors and lasers.
Ok, so about the same as at rallycross then? Hmm. We need a barcode scanner and a giant barcode on the side of each car. 1. drive past scanner before start, record car # 2. trip start light to record starting timestamp for car # 3. drive around track 4. trip finish light and record ending timestamp 5. don't let cars get out of order between 4 and 6 6. drive past 2nd scanner at finish to assign finish time to car # 7. calculate lap time from starting and ending timestamps Then it might work ok without someone manually watching all the time to make sure people don't get out of order, etc.
stupid question I know this is stupid question but since I dont own a subaru any more could I participate with my blazer... my sister rolled my subaru so im SOL till i can save up and get another in the spring... And another dumb question.... ice races still in duluth this year??? ive never particiated but have always wanted to so dont hate ; )
