I'm getting my videos uploaded now. I have my in-car runs as well as some external footage of a few of you that were running the M4/PA class when I had time to grab a little footage after my runs since I was first in line later in the day. Times: Set-Run: Time 1-1: 71.xxx 1-2: 70.19x 2-1: 49.xxx + 1 cone 2-2: 48.403 3-1: 44.661 3-2: 43.737 Sum: 162.33 Class: M4 Finish: 1st In car footage of my runs: Set 1 Run 1 Set 1 Run 2 Set 2 Run 1 Set 2 Run 2 Set 3 Run 1 Set 3 Run 2 External footage of cars 15, 121, 171, 54, 60, 68 (only cars I have video of):
Thanks for sharing this, if you could walk us thru what was happening on those runs. How hard was the surface, how much throttle were you able to apply and why soo much steering wheel input?
Simple answer: go as fast as I can. I put notes on the car in the comments on the first video. The surface was actually quite grippy. Early day, the ground was simply moist but not overly muddy and it continued to dry out from there. It would pack on the tires at first, but it wasn't overly slippy as it has been on some previous events. Moist and spongy is a good descriptor. There was very little trouble for grip, so fast was simply a matter of how well the tire worked on dirt. The tire I ran was the Continental Extreme Winter Contact which has proven to be rather competent on the surface. They don't particularly do anything wrong at least, although something knobbier might have a little more ultimate grab. Believe it or not, this kind of dirt surface with pretty much any remotely decent tire will take all the power you've got. I have the throttle pegged anywhere I'm not braking or simply holding a constant speed around a corner. There's simply no reason not to. Even with my bro's FXT running an 18G, the foot is to the floor just the same. Really in 2nd gear, you'd be able to use 400ft-lbs just fine. Grip isn't that big of an issue. Diffs however can be once the surface gets quite rutted up or is inconsistent (early spring/late fall with snow/ice mix). Steering input was moderate because the course layouts were for the most part a giant slalom, just a lot of back and forth. Speeds were also top of 1st, just into 2nd gear kinds of speed, so the course was relatively tight and the corners decently sharp. Being on loose surface as well as being on winter tires means steering inputs need to be a little early and fast to get the car to rotate as soon and as quick as you want, but most of it had to do with how tight the course was laid out. I'm not sure if there's a whole lot for play-by-play action. Since the course was mainly a big slalom, it was driven as one. I think most of the challenge for anyone was simply to make sure to read ahead and actually place the car where they needed. As well, with the course changes between each set, it stopped being a matter of walking and planning out the course. This was something I did for the first run set, but the other two sets was simply look ahead, place the car well, and go as fast as the car would let me. For the 1st and 3rd runs I did stick to 1st gear more than I should. One thing i got used to driving my bro's FXT is to make sure I knew where I could stay or get back into 1st gear. Gearing alone is a 40% drop in torque at the wheels stepping from 1st to 2nd. As well power is linear for a NA or a turboed car running a larger turbo. Even a peaky turbo like a TD04 with a weak top end is still about a 15% drop despite the massive midrange torque peak. As long as you're not topping out and slowing yourself down, it's often better to be in that gear if you can. The power also tends to let you play around a little more with the car dynamically based on power output and engine braking. You can just modulate throttle and get a good bit of weigh transfer and even moderate longitudinal force for front end pull and/or kicking the rear end out. One issue with this track is that it was just open enough to barely get you out of 1st gear through most of it. Staying in first meaning sitting at the rev limiter for a good portion of the run. I used more 2nd for run 2, but I made the mistake of staying in 1st on run 4. Run 3 was slower, so I didn't notice it so much, but when I ran my second run on the new course setup, I realized I sped up a bit and was mainly just sitting at the top of 1st through a lot of the course. For runs 5 and 6 I made sure to use 2nd a lot more to ensure I maintained as much overall speed as I could, only going to 1st when I needed to, mainly start, the far 90 coming back, and the sharp right before the sprint to the finish. As far as attacking the course, I think the big issue was car placement and making sure you were set up well for the next part. Since it was a lot of slalom or tight curves, staying snug paid dividends. As with any slalom, you do a lot to stick your back tire at the apex, so a lot of my line revolved around this. An example is at 0:23-0:31 on the 1st run video. You go through the little S seemingly going quite wide on the right turn but specifically doing so to tuck well right next to the 2nd cone. This then lets me keep sharp right, go high on the left turn, and then get the car aligned well on the exit and clipping the second cone set straight for the exit. These are basically lock to lock turns, so you sort of make the best of it. The bigger key of the whole thing was the exit since it was an acceleration point. If I stayed tight on the cones coming into either part, I would have been way wide on the exit and slow through the next section instead of being straight and on the gas early. The right hander at 0:40 was a similar plan. Go slightly wide before the right, stay tight and high through the right, and allow an early left and throttle towards the long acceleration zone through the water hazzard. Since this was another long spot of acceleration, it's best to set up to be on the gas as early as possible. I don't think I ever quite executed it as well either time as I had planned in my mind though. Most of the rest of the course was really about driving a slalom like a slalom. Even all the later runs were really just more of the same. It remained an overall tight and technical course, so maintaining speed and staying tidy was the name of the game.
Wowzer thats like a novel there. So looking back if youre were to help a novice driver what do you think you could do differently to help improve your times? How would you know you were doing better without being timed? You have some very fast hands there.
Well, there's always room for improvement. For rally-x specifically, I've kind of left a reasonable safe zone between me and the cones, more so than I do with auto-x. It is very rare that I hit cones now, and when I do it's pretty specific. I know this means I am leaving some room on the table by doing this, but I also feel a little bit of safety is still better than 2 seconds. At the same time, I know I'm not far away either. It's simply that with loose terrain, you sort of have to put in that wiggle room because sometimes you'll make it and sometimes you won't. From a personal standpoint, the biggest thing I struggle with is pushing the car. The ideal is to bring the car up near 10th/10ths and keep it there as much as possible throughout the entire course. From personal experience, me fast and me genuinely attempting this is 2-3 seconds of time on a run. I'll run a rally-x or auto-x day, do a pile of runs, be decently quick, and still hate what I'm doing. I've become pretty self aware of how much I'm holding back, and I've gained a good idea of what I can get from the car after being in this sport and using this car for quite a few years. Some times, I do find it tough to really bring a 100% game. It takes a certain kind of mental commitment to just go and do it. The Mowog 1 and 2 were even examples. I never really pushed my bro's FXT till day two at Mowog 2 and only the last couple runs. There I chop off 2-3 seconds. The Mowog 2 last year was the same. I waited till the very last run to really drive the car and chopped off 3 seconds from already quick times. The June Bug two year ago was similar. I knocked off 3 seconds on my last run set and got within half a second of what Mark posted for that run set. The most difficult thing I've had doing this sport is trying to get to that point right from the start. This is especially true at national events like Cocoran because every single run counts. Who can get there faster wins and is a reason I've been grabbing podium finishes there. As far as knowing how well I'm doing regardless of time, I've been doing it long enough to have a good idea of what I've put into a run and how much I've left on the table. I've gained a decent ability to know how many seconds I can work with for the car. I am also pretty mad at myself if I know I did a half-assed job. I don't care if I got 1st or not. If I didn't drive the car well, I leave pissed at myself. I'm pretty content with leaving about a second of what I think the car could possibly do because perfection is an illusion. I know when I'm close and when I'm very far away. I know it in how I drive and what percentage of the course I spent at the limit of the car. I've walked away from a couple auto-xes and a couple rally-xes mad at myself knowing it was a half-assed job. It's kind of silly to me to even be mad about something I do mainly for fun, but sometimes it's just good to leave knowing you tried your best. When you know you haven't, it's hard to be happy about it, even if it's just for fun. For novice drivers, I think the biggest issue is simply knowing what the car can do. Most have never really pushed their cars to find out what kind of limits it has. As well, there is a good deal of time spent simply learning car control and just knowing what to do when something happens. What do you do when the car understeers? What do you do when the back end slides out? How well does the car respond to various levels of brake/throttle/steering inputs and mixes of these inputs? What about tire grip, inertia, or car placement and racing lines? It's a big learning process of many little things. I think the biggest help for a novice is simply to practice and think about what makes a car fast and a car fast through a course. I have a friend who was a terrible driver (the gold Civic that shows up once in a while at events). He was a horrid driver before my bro and I dragged him to auto-x and rally-x events. He's learned so much about car control and simply by doing. He's had instructors do ride-alongs with him and give feedback, but most of it was him simply figuring things out. It's helpful to be able to bounce ideas of people who know better and can give feedback on techniques, ways of thinking, etc. I've offered to co-drive some people's cars for this reason, although I can't say I've had many takers. Hehe, fast hands. That's not fast. Try driving a pickup truck with 8 turns lock to lock. Oops did I say drive? I meant drift. Fast is a matter of scale. As well, I can make use of what I do mainly because of how responsive the car is in the first place. High spring rates, high damping, and upgraded bushings have their advantages to putting those inputs to the ground in a meaningful way. As long as the tires aren't overworked, you do what you can get away with.
It's obvious you have some experience; what would say to a peer that is the most important attribute to driving fast, where does it all start? Fast hands? If they're making a lot of corrections what could be the leading cause of this issue? In any of your runs did you attempt LFB?
I think it starts with a willingness to go fast. Part of this is simply the desire to want to push the car and yourself as far as it will go. Part of this is also allowing a general disregard for the safety of yourself, your car, and even your surroundings. This is more so a willingness not to hold back. You have to be willing to let go of the car as in you don't care if you damage it, wreck it, heck total it. The rally-x sport attempts to maintain a relatively safe environment to help ensure such things don't happen. The course gets changed to work around rutting. The layout avoids dangerous areas. The event is run to allow relative safety while being stupid with a car. In different environments, you may need to build in some safety allowance and do certain things to maintain longevity of the car. Folks doing stage rally for example are not trying to simply go all out. They have a goal to finish and maintain the car for a duration of time. This involves building in a margin of safety, planned avoidance of some dangers, conservation of the car in certain ways (ex. managing tire wear), and generally having a game plan to finish the whole event. Things like rally-x and auto-x are far too short to have this kind of thinking. You really do gain the freedom to simply go all out which is nice. Beyond that I think the difference is in the frequency of your attempts to be as fast as possible. For example, one person may think he was fast around a course because he took this or that corner quick, sort of "I really nailed that corner" kind of thing. The thinking is in sparse, large blocks. I feel a person who is really trying to be fast works on a much smaller scale. It's not the corner as a whole but rather every single foot of that corner. The attempt to be quick is beyond coarse concepts like braking late, maintaining speed, and accelerating early. For that, you broke the corner down into 3 parts. You picked when to brake, what speed to maintain, and when to get on the gas. What if you broke that corner down into 20 or 30 parts? What if you tried to squeeze out every little bit from every little section of that corner? What if you performed deliberate inputs every single second of that corner? What if you performed deliberate inputs for every single second for the entire course? I think when you start trying to do this, you start getting really fast. You start becoming very deliberate with the car. You start breaking down the course more, not only thinking about braking zones and acceleration points but also transitions, car location and direction, and where you might have better or worse grip. You start planning out the whole path in a more methodical manner. Then you run it and try to be as close to that plan as possible, and you tweak and adjust and stick the car right where you think it should be every single foot of the way. Fast hands is not important to driving fast. It helps if the inputs are needed, but simply sawing at the wheel isn't a good thing. I've done some ride alongs with people who are very heavy with the steering inputs putting in a lot of chassis motion that doesn't really do anything for the car progression through the course. Sometimes I think people are just used to or simply prefer to manhandle a car. I do prefer the idea of minimalistic input. I feel less is more if it's possible to do so. There is always a certain amount that you have to do just to transition through the course. That's unavoidable. However, there shouldn't be excess. I am open to some level of input simply to "feel out" the car or course. I do find this type of thing beneficial when the limits are more gray than black and white. However, when the car and course is well known and consistent, then you really should transition to far more precise actions and a lot more finesse. Making a correction means you did something wrong with the inputs, plain and simple. It means you put in too much, too little, or the wrong mix of inputs for the intended task. From here it's simply a matter of recognizing that and adjusting the inputs as needed. This is a venture in self-improvement. These things are unavoidable. You can never be perfect, so there will always be a small amount of fiddling and correcting. The goal is to keep error minimal and the need for corrections small. If you don't know the car well or surface well, your guesses might be a ways off from the ideal. Then you're spending a lot of time learning through trial and error to dial in the car, to better understand the surface, and decrease the breadth of error. You may start off with very big inputs, lots of error, large corrections. As you dial things in, these things narrow. The hope in the end is to scale it down all the way to very minor inputs and no big errors. No left foot braking for me. It's something I've toyed with a little bit in the past. I've never attempted to invest enough time into it to be remotely competent doing so. I don't particularly like the pedal layout on the car either and tend to hit more than one pedal at times. I'm not too keen on bumping the clutch while I've got the throttle down. I also haven't really found a major need to transition to left foot braking. The way I operate the gas and brake are like this. Throttle is 0 to 100. Brake is -100 to 0. As I drive I operate between -100 and 100 and the right foot transitions back and forth as needed depending on where I'm at. Most of the time I am very much on the throttle or very much on the brakes. For the more dynamic times I often find myself more in the 0 to 20 range rather than the -10 to 10 range when it comes to fiddling between throttle and brake. I tend to lean on the light throttle side and will seldom need to work with the brakes to do the task. Part of this has to do with the car setup. It rotates well. I find engine braking or light throttle on turn-in to be enough to rotate the car. I have little need to brake while I'm on the throttle. If I am braking, I am braking for good reason. I do find a greater need for left foot braking with my brother's FXT, however that is more so a matter of its lack of responsiveness. I've been content enough to simply adjust my driving to stay within the 0-20 range and avoid the negative, but I know it's a compromise that can benefit from left foot braking. Going through the slalom at Mowog 2 was pretty apparent that I wanted to use brake and throttle more than I could. The 18G and drive by wire was simply too sluggish to let me do so with one foot. I ended up just not using the brake and adjusted my line as needed to work with it, but I really did want to use the brakes. For my car, I don't have that problem. It's responsive enough and handles in a way that doesn't really need left foot braking while performing the same actions. I will simply never transition to the negative range. You asked what I relied on when putting down my fastest laps. Past experience mostly. I rely on the idea that what I know will get me through the course without me having to think about it. I get to instead focus on the big picture rather than the little details. Want to know what I think defines the difference between a novice and an experienced driver? It's this. A novice driver will spend all of his time trying to control the car while mindlessly transitioning through the course. An experiences driver will read ahead and plan his route through the course, making efforts to place the car where he wants, maintain speed, and simply transition as fast as possible through the course. He doesn't think about controlling the car at all. I don't. I've already spent that time in the past learning those things and doing them repeatedly. On an unfamiliar car, I will fall back to this due to the need to learn to control, but with a well known car, there is no thought on controlling it. The car could be sliding sideways at 100mph and I wouldn't give one thought about how to control it. I would simply be looking ahead, well out the side of the car, and deciding where I want to put it. I completely rely on the past experience and memory to pretty much automatically sort things out for me. This is what experience gains you, an allowance to let your mind do other things. If you ask a martial artist what he's thinking about when sparring an opponent, he won't tell you he's thinking about how to kick, punch, or block. He's not thinking about forms, how to move the body precisely, or anything of that sort. That's all built in automatically through repetition doing the same move 100,000 times during drills. The choice to kick is opponent in the head is decided and finished in a faction of a section. To him, the kick was done before he starts moving his leg. The rest of the times is spent reading his opponent's actions, and planning strategies. His mind will be several moves ahead. He is given this freedom due to the countless hours of practice and repetition trying to get all the basics perfect. This is what experience gets you. This is what I rely on the most when I try to drive fast.
All this in first and 2nd gear. Simplicity is Universal! I think your last post could be summed up in four letters "EYES" Driving fast all starts with your eyes, the real question is how well do you use them. Your extensions will perform in unison to how much data you can gather thru your eyes. Drivers make a lot of corrections because they don't know how to use them. You can teach a novice how to use their eyes properly and you can sit back and watch them double their speeds around a technical course like DCTC. They may not know the fastest lines or possess the technical skills but they will all of the suddenly see so many more opportunities on the situation standing in front of them. We call that competence. You can't expect to compete with what you can't see. Willingness to drive fast should not be interpreted as reckless, but rather controlled or walking the line as for some of us driving stupid fast seems like walking. Driving fast comes naturally to those who master the basics; speed will come whether the driver will want it or not. Experience only creates bad habits as most would refer to them as an excuse for bring superiority over others. If you were to ask me how many years I've been performance driving I'd tell you one year, as it was just last year when I've discovered I could go just a little faster. All the years prior to that won't matter. LFB would have been your balancer from observing your runs. Granted I'm not in your shoes, but that's what I would've done. That would've reduced my steering inputs allowing my wheels to stay more straight, in turn allowing more traction, in turn I could apply more power to the ground. I'm not here to criticize you, I just found your perspective very interesting. If you want to instruct I suggest getting your message across with saying less. -Thank you, Sir!
I just type a lot. I do half agree with eyes and half not. I only use my eyes to read the course. Much of the data I'm receiving though is more through feeling. For example, I'm paying more attention to the tires than I am the road. Most of what I "see" is through the seat, steering wheel, feet, etc. and much less the eyes. I will agree eyes play a big role in a stock trim car because there is so very little feeling. Most of how you drive a stock Impreza, stock WRX is via the eyes. You have to because you aren't getting information elsewhere. I've also fallen into a similar habit playing video game racing sims. Even with a force feedback wheel, much of the information is via the eyes, but you only do so because that's all you have to work with. Once you have more, you tend to rely on the eyes less. For example, I don't use my eyes to tell me I'm sliding, to tell me the car's rotating, nor to tell me where the car's traveling. I gather most of that through forces against the body. However, this does require upgrading bushings throughout the car. You absolutely need the feeling to be there in order to actually use it. But once it's there, the eyes can start processing other things. At least, this is how I drive. To understand how I drive the car, it is helpful to understand the car. As it is set up, it operates very neutrally. It has very slight understeer. Driving the car at the limit is like driving the car under the limit. Basically if a corner of X radius takes 1 turn of the wheel to travel around at slow speed, it will require 1 turn plus a tiny bit more at the limit. This will be neutral. I can turn in a touch further and get the car to rotate. I can simply let off the gas and get the car to rotate. It happily does so. In fact, I've been quite surprised at how well it does turn and how easy it is to transition between under and over steer at the limit. Because of this, I've come to find very little need to use the brakes to get the front end to do anything. If I never really have to transition to the brake pedal, I am never in enough need to use it in the form of left foot braking. I agree experience can be as bad as it is good if what you've learned was based on bad ideas. I think it depends on if you are actually learning from your mistakes. Really, driving should be about continuous improvement. In a way you keep rewriting the book for how to control your car. The information is built up over the years in terms of basic techniques and proven methods to make the car do certain things. Much of it should be right or at least questioned and revised enough to eventually become right. You learn what works and what doesn't, and the info gets filed away. From a well developed book you can mindlessly drive and do quite well. I think the better driver simply keeps analyzing and fine tuning the book, starting with what he had and keeps tweaking it and seeing if it can be better. It's hard to say that something is straight up wrong unless it was wrong from the start. It's kind of like chucking the car hard into a corner, sliding, and always countersteering on exit and thinking the whole process is required just to turn the corner. It technically works and likely has you ending up eventually where you should be, but the process should evolve over time down to more precise actions and no need for corrections. Now if you never learn, you never get better.
Thanks for posting up the videos! Any chance I can get the clip of 117 w/ audio? I am way excited for the next event already, I am craving more seat time with the new setup.
Awesome, thanks a bunch! You can hear in the clip "Car 117.... 1 cone" lol. I hit more cones this rallyx than all last season.
Haha. I almost never hit cones anymore. Sometimes I even expect to but apparently underestimate the narrowness of my car. I did hit one this event, but it was rather blatant.
