I have a 2002 Outback Wagon and I have recently been having clutch issues. Just installed the new clutch in Sept. when I did a transmission swap and it has been working great until now. From a stop, I let out the clutch all the way and the car moves forward but it slips as if I am riding the clutch. This happens in every gear and the clutch pedal is completely let out. The first time it happened was last week for about 3 miles and then it stopped doing it and drove perfectly until yesterday (a week later). It started doing the same thing again but a little worse. It feels as if the clutch is not fully disengaging but I have never smelled burnt clutch. First thought was that it may be a leak in the hydraulic system because when I had it in the garage I pushed the clutch pedal to the floor and it stayed there. The Master Cylinder reservoir was a little low so I added fluid and pulled the pedal up.. pumped is a few times and it stayed up. Thinking it may be better, I took it for a drive and the problem still existed. Today the slave cylinder was replaced and the main hydraulic line... the system was bleed completely and the clutch felt good. On the test drive the clutch still continued to 'slip'. I have no idea what is going on. I have been told that it could be an issue mechanically with the clutch (inside the bell housing) but the fact that the clutch was stuck to the floor at one point makes me think it could still be a hydraulic issue (even though the slave and main line were replaced). The mechanic that is looking at it claims that it shouldn't be the master cylinder. He is the one who seems to think it is not a problem with the hydraulic system but he wants to be sure before he pulls the transmission to access the clutch. Any thoughts? Thanks!
Clutch on the floor sounds like a slave cylinder or hydraulic issue (leak or air) but it sounds like you resolved that. Clutch hasnt failed to come off the floor since changing the slave, line, and fluid right? If it rattles before it "slips" it might be the tob depending on hw fast youre engaging the clutch and accellerating, but if not then yeah, probably an issue with the clutch disc or the pressure plate. What clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel did you use when you relaced it in sept?
Clutch pedal hasn't been stuck on the floor since swapping in the new slave and hydraulic line. I really hope it is nothing to do with the TOB. I don't have the time to do the work and my garage is really cold.
Clutch was practically brand new and came out of a 2004 Legacy L. We checked it over pretty thoroughly before installation. I couldn't afford to drop the money for a brand new clutch kit but if I have to drop the tranny again... damn... wish I had replaced the clutch with everything brand new. Guess I may have learned a little lesson.
Yeah, if the clutch isn't sticking to the floor anymore but still "slipping," I would say you had 2 separate issues and resolved one. It could be the throwout bearing, a mechanical or installation error with the pressure plate, an issue with the clutch disc itself, etc... Did you do the work on the car? The trans swap and such?
Yeah, did the work with the help of a friend (friend new what he was doing). Pretty sure the installation was all done correctly... clutch aligned, everything torqued to spec. I have already given the 'go ahead' to a respectable shop to get it resolved. I would attempt to pull the tranny again and do the repairs on the clutch but I don't really have the knowledge, the time, or a warm garage to do it in. At this point I just want it fixed.
My fault if it came off like i was second guessing the work done to the car. I was just going to ask some more specific followup questions. Sounds like its being resolved now though so thats good to hear. Keep us updated with what the issue is.
No worries! I wasn't taking offense to your comments at all. I have been running the whole installation process through my head again to try and think of what could have caused the issue but nothing comes to mind. More questions are definitely welcome. I am interested in figuring it out myself, even though the shop should resolve the issue. They can't start the work until Wednesday though.
Where is it engaging in the pedal stroke? It could be out of adjustment enough where it is not fully releasing. You should be able to see the slave/fork. With the pedal up you should be able to move the fork a bit by hand. You clean the pressure plate/flywheel before install?
I haven't had the car in my possession for about 4 days now so I am not exactly sure anymore where it was engaging on the stroke. How would the clutch be adjusted? Pressure plate and flywheel were cleaned prior to install.
You can adjust the rod end between the pedal arm and the master cylinder changing the relative pedal position. If its too far one way or the other you either wont be able to push the pedal down far enough to fully compress the pressure plate, or it wont be able to come up far enough to release the pressure plate.
Gotchya. Just called the shop and they said they are pretty sure that something it broken inside. Hydraulic system is solid now after the slave and line replacement. They are thinking I may have a broken spring plate because there is not enough pressure being applied to the clutch plate.
If they were partially in, wouldn't the splines grind and get destroyed and if they were not in at all, the car wouldn't move? I know the fronts are in for sure because we would not have gotten the pins in to lock them in place. As for the rears... they appeared to be in completely. So, if only one drive axle in the rear was completely installed and the other had popped out... is that possibly why it would feel like a slipping clutch?
Well, I am a little pissed off right now. Before they had decided to drop the transmission to inspect the clutch internally, I asked them to check the rear drive axles. They seemed sure that it could not be the problem. Today: I called the shop this morning and they had dropped the transmission... no damage to the clutch, just normal wear. I asked if they had inspected the rear axles and they said they had spun the rear wheels and the diff functioned as it should. 2 hours later I receive a call from the shop, " we were tricked, it was the rear axles... the retainer clip on one was missing or broken causing the axle to pop out". So... had they listened to me and really looked at the rear axles... they never would have had to replace the clutch... and that means they never would have had to drop the transmission! I feel that there is no way I should have to pay the labor fee for them to drop my transmission because they made the mistake and did not listen to me. I was talking with the tech and the owner the entire time. They are a respectable shop and I have never had any issues with them in the past so I am hoping that they will do something to compensate for their mistake. Thoughts???
You would be correct. Good luck with that though. If they are a reputable shop then there won't be any issues. Especially since there should be some documentation of your request to check the rear axles.
The clip for the rear axles are in the diff. That's why the splined stub is tapered, unlike the front axle, which has a cir-clip on it. They should just pop right back in. Sorry but there is no refund for labor... Unless they are willing to not charge you for popping in an axle.
Won't get the car back until Monday now because no dealer has the clips in stock. At least they could be ordered separately though. I will see what I get charged when I pick up the car and then I can go from there. I have gotten past the 'pissed off' stage and now I am in the state of mind that 'it is that it is'. Oh well. Thanks to all of you that put in your $.02, I really appreciate all the help!
I would think you have a issue with them not doing a thorough inspection on the rear axles as requested. Turning the wheels?? Not enough in my book. Admitting that they were tricked? I would not pay for them to be tricked. If I pay for an oil change and they charge me for changing my spark plugs as well, I would say we would have an issue. Mind you, I don't know what conversation's you had with the shop. If you requested something that was not done..... Once again, good luck with this. If you don;'t mind me asking, what shop did you take it to?
The shop is Autopia Bloomington and then have done a bunch of other work on the car in the past. I have a good relationship with the owner and they have always done good work. I would like to keep the good relationship so I am hoping that they admit to the mistake and cut me a brake on the labor costs. They had already dropped the transmission, pulled the clutch and machined the flywheel when they found the real issue. Even though the clutch that I had installed was relatively brand new, it was still used so the owner recommended still installing a new clutch... and at his cost. In my mind that did make sense due to the fact that I will have the piece of mind that all the clutch internals are brand new. The other good thing, I guess, is that they will be reinstalling the transmission so if anything was not completely correct when I swapped in the new one, it should be now. As I said, I will wait to get the bill and then if things don't seem fair in my mind, I'll bring up the fact that if they had done what I have asked, I never would have had to replace the clutch and thus not having to drop the transmission. I guess I am not looking for them to entirely waive the labor costs but at least give me a significant discount.
Did you authorize them to do that work of pulling the gearbox? If you said yeah go ahead I don't think you have any ground to stand on besides the owner giving you a break on the labor in good faith.
Not sure I can actually say I authorized it but I didn't stop them when they said they were sure it was an internal issue. Before they did it, I asked 'what happens if you pull the transmission and find nothing?' and his answer was... 'it won't happen'. I'm just hoping for exactly what you said... the owner giving me a break in good faith.
Haven't had my car since December 9th. They say it will be ready today... with the say things have been going, I'm a little skeptical. I'm interested to see the bill. I will update you all tomorrow. Thanks again for all of your help!
UPDATE: I picked up my car yesterday and the shop was very professional about the whole ordeal. All said and done, it was a little over $600 total bill... charge me only $133 labor... rest were parts... new slave cylinder, new main hydraulic line, clutch bleed, brand new clutch assembly, new rear axle retainer clips. Original quote was $1200 for just the clutch assy and labor. I am guessing the total repairs could easily have been $1500+ had I paid the full amount. When I walked in, I didn't have to mention a thing. The owner apologized for the inconvenience and took responsibility for the misdiagnosis. He had already adjusted the bill to make things right before I could even comment. They knew I was very frustrated with the whole situation and I was very impressed with how they handled it. Definitely glad I have a good relationship with the shop and owner! I probably should not have doubted them. Their professionalism in handling the situation definitely saved themselves a customer!
WOW... you guys will never guess what I had to deal with over Christmas! Picked up my car from the shop last Wednesday after the whole clutch/rear drive axle clips ordeal. Friday I drove to Mandan, ND just west of Bismarck...4hours into the trip the transmission popped out of 5th. I thought it was a little strange but it went back into 5th and kept going... shortly after it popped out again and I had completely lost 5th gear. Since it was late Friday night and nothing was open, I shifted into 4th and kept going. 30min down the road my speedometer dropped to 0 and I thus I lost my cruise control. For the next 2 hours I drove slowly in 4th and made it to the destination. My transmission was basically eff'd and I was in the middle of NoDak for Christmas with my girlfriend and her family. I had just put that transmission in this Sept and it only had 40k on it! Everything was perfect until they messed with it. Checked the gear oil level in the transmission.... bone dry... not a drop on the dipstick!!! The shop tech drained the transmission, pulled it, reinstalled it and never refilled it! How stupid it that?!?!?!? After adding 3 qts of 75-90 I was able to test drive it and decided I could get it home... in 4th gear at 4200rpms for 6.5hours on I94. I was in contact with the shop and dropped it off this morning. This is all on them and the owner agreed. He was definitely not happy with the situation and that his tech had forgotten to refill the gearbox with oil. They will be replacing my transmission or completely rebuilding the current one... and all charges will be on them. For now, I am out of a car for who knows how long but they should be getting me a rental car. It all goes back to the fact that had they listened to me in the first place and checked the rear drive axles thoroughly, they would never have pulled the transmission and would not be dealing with this customer service nightmare! AND I wouldn't be dealing with all this added stress. Arghhhh. Merry Christmas to me!
well at least the shop is making it right in this day and age alot of shops will try anything they can to get outa that.
x2 to that! Kinda feel sorry for that tech that's doing the work... first, he mis-diagnosed the problem, causing him to r&r the trans FOR FREE, now he gets to do it again, FOR FREE. Granted, it's his mistake that caused the second R&R, but still feel a little bad for him. I was a wrench before I joined the Army, I know what it's like to screw something up and have to fix it instead of working on a paying project. Good on them for owning up to it and fixing it. Maybe you can pick up the difference to go to an STi gearbox??
I am guessing he was rushing to get it back to me since they had it for almost 2 weeks. The tech is a good guy and is usually very dependable. Even though I am the one dealing with the inconvenience, I do feel badly for him as well. Not sure putting in an STI gearbox is worth it in my car... and I am not sure it is compatible anyways. The thing that sucks is that the one I just put in this Sept had low miles. I am not sure they shop will be able to find one in that good of shape so I would almost rather have them overhaul my current transmission if that is possible.
Just wanted to say sorry for the troubles and that it's very refreshing to see a new member who is so level headed and reasonable. People make mistakes. It's great to hear the shop is owning up to theirs and you aren't feeling entitled to anything more than what you're owed (your car to the condition they promised it in when finished with their work on it). You're right about the 6speed. Completely unnecessary although compatible with a few changes (axles, rear diff, possibly brakes, hubs, struts, wheels, etc... depending on which 6-speed you were to source).
Thanks for the kind words idget. It has definitely been frustrating but I really can't do much more than roll with the punches! You are right about me not wanting anything more than my car back in working condition. It has been a pain having to find other transportation options while they have had my vehicle. As for the 6spd, the car has 206k on it... no worth it in my mind. Thanks for the info though! I just hope it doesn't take them too long to find a replacement and if they can't, hopefully they can get mine rebuilt in a timely fashion.
Probably would be a good idea to write a check list and run through it when you pick the car up to avoid further issues and trips back. Also, buying a sixer for the guy doing all of this wrenching might put a smile back on his face. Sounds like they have really bent themselves over a barrel on these repairs. Its refreshing to hear a shop that knows profit margin on a single job isn't as important than maintaining relationships that net repeat business. Even a negative review can be good publicity if its reacted to honorably.
Update: Stopped in last night at the shop and they are now claiming that they never drained the gear oil from the transmission. First of all, is it possible to pull a transmission and not drain it first without losing any fluid? Second, the transmission fluid was completely topped off and checked multiple times when the new transmission was installed in September and checked a month or so after just to be sure. I know that there has never been a leak because I would have seen the oil all over my garage floor where it has been parked pretty much every night since the install in September. No matter what, the transmission was in good working order before they pulled it last week and shortly after getting it back from the shop, the current problem occurred. Where did the fluid go if they really never drained it? Wouldn't you think they would still check it when everything was reassembled? (the tech told me straight up that he only checked the fluid level in the rear diff, not up front) I will most likely have another conversation with the owner today. I have a really bad feeling in my stomach now... because they have some doubt that they caused the problem so they could possibly lay all the cost on me. Thoughts???
That is what I thought too! Something doesn't seem right about all of this now. I feel like the tech might be lying to save his butt. I guess I don't blame him but come on! How do I lose over 3qts of gear oil with no sign of a leak anywhere??? The transmission was in good working order before they touched it last week and after they reinstalled it... BOOM!... toasted. They wouldn't pull the transmission, drive axle and rear diff all connected together would they? That seems awkward and doesn't make sense to me.
Yeah that would be way more work than disconnecting the axles and driveshaft and then dropping the trans. I suppose they could have pulled the motor to get to the clutch assembly... but again, more work than just dropping the trans. You're right though, at this point it's not about laying blame, it's about fixing the fact that "The transmission was in good working order before they touched it last week and after they reinstalled it... BOOM!... toasted." Who claimed the shop never drained the trans fluid? The tech that worked on it? The owner of the shop?
The tech claims that he never drained the fluid. I suppose he may be lying just to save his butt though. If he truly didn't drain it, how do I lose 3+ quarts of gear oil over 3 months without having a visible leak then??? As I stated before, nothing was wrong with the transmission until after they had pulled it and I got the car back.
Yeah, sounds like you need to keep the conversation between you and the owner. Is there a shop manager involved in all of this too? If so, it sounds like they need to keep that tech in check. He's digging the shop into a hole with a very reasonable customer.
So, interesting thing I recently heard from an actual certified Subaru tech at a dealership... apparently more often than none, when Subaru owners take their car in for an oil change at a quick lube place or is another inexperienced tech changes the oil, the transmission plug will be mistaken for the oil plug. The trans fluid if drained partially and they the plug is replaced and the OIL is topped off. Ever heard of this happening? Not sure how they would change the filter with the oil pan full though. The reason I mention this is because I suppose it could be a theory as to why my transmission was dry. Funny thing is, the last place to change my oil was the same shop that has my car right now. There are two main techs that do the major work and I think they have a couple other guys who might do small jobs like oil changes. Thoughts??? BTW- The fore mentioned Subaru tech also said that it is possible to pull the transmission without draining the fluid but special components are used to keep the fluid from leaking out. I am pretty sure that the shop that has my car does not use this procedure though.
