http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341 worth a read. Wondering if anyone else around here is trying e85 out. i've been using it for a few days(20% e85/80%premium) and car actually seems smoother. I can't add any more now though because my injectors are basically max'd out at the moment...so i'm already on the edge of being really lean. and the kicker is its higher octane and cheaper than 87!! i noticed ben(phatsuby) and krees contributed to the thread. save the world with cheaper and higher octane fuels
Yeah, I've been following that thread for quite a while now. Unfortunately, the e-85 pump by my house shut down like 6 months ago.
I ran a tank of mixed last week. i saw a similar thread on RS25.com. which you can read here: http://www.rs25.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31909 . anyway i ran 5gallons of E85 mixed with about 6.5 -7 gallons of 92oct. i felt virtually no difference, i noticed the car smelled different, and maybe had some more pep but not much. i also noticed my car was quiter, this might have something to do with the more dense exhuast gas. since i only did it once i was not able to play around with adding more / less then usual. so my testing was kinda worthless. in the end if my fuel system could take it (didnt need to worry about wrecking fuel lines ect...) i would run teh stuff since it is $2.40 in maple plain, compared to 3.20 for 92oct. or even 2.80 for 87oct.
i have two by me for some reason. use this link to search for gas stations near you that carry e85 http://www.e85fuel.com/database/search.php
^ you should be able to. i havent read that link that justin posted, but from the info i have seen it should work for a while. anything OBD2 (1995+ for subies) will run on a mix of E85. the only issueis how compatible the fuel components are with it. the FFV (flexible fuel vehicles) have teflon coated fuel ines which prevent the build up of junk which causes problems in normal cars. i dont know if subaru is using these lines or not. but regardless it will work for a little while.
i run it in the L from time to time...i felt a difference, such as i couldnt beat a certian j body then switched to an e85 mix, two days later, walked him.
I used it for a long time during the last two summers. I used a bigger fuel pump, advanced the injectors so that basically they were at full spray all the time and it worked great. It needs to be watched though as it can run a bit lean. I did notice a substantial power increase but lower fuel mileage as e85 has a lower stochiometric rate than gasoline and therefore is less efficient of a fuel.
as far as what i've read, yes. But you need to slowly move over to it. They suggest starting at 10-20% for a bit. Then if you feel you need more, give it a little more and if they car doesnt take it, back off a bit.
^^^ agreed... I guess there is more reason than $$$$ that car manufacturers spend millions designing cars to run on it???
The main issue that 2.0L WRX owners run into is that they end up maxing out their injectors when running over a certain % mixture. Ethanol has a very low stioch. mixture, and thus requires much more fuel to be dumped.
Just doesnt seem right. Your car isnt built to run on that gas and your not tuned for it, just not a good idea imo.
^could you refer me to where you read that. I find it very hard to believe that if you use it at all it will ruin your engine.
He's right. Engines that are designed to run on E85 have stronger seals, etc. Running E85 (perhaps, un-mixed) is dangerous on non-flex fuel vehicles for pro-longed period of times. There is plenty of documents highlighting the dangers of running it. In fact I was watching something on TV the other day that was talking about how people were killing their engines. Granted if you run it mixed you are less likely to experience any problems. However, it is suggested that you not exceede 10% E85 fuel if you dont have a flex fuel capable vehicle. From Wikipedia Risks E85 can cause damage, since prolonged exposure to high concentrations of ethanol may corrode metal and rubber parts in older engines (pre-1988) designed primarily for gasoline. The hydroxyl group on the ethanol molecule is an extremely weak acid, but it can enhance corrosion for some natural materials. For post-1988 fuel-injected engines, all the components are already designed to accommodate E10 (10% ethanol) blends through the elimination of exposed magnesium and aluminum metals and natural rubber and cork gasketed parts. Hence, there is a greater degree of flexibility in just how much more ethanol may be added without causing ethanol-induced damage, varying by automobile manufacturer. Anhydrous ethanol in the absence of direct exposure to alkali metals and bases is non-corrosive; it is only when water is mixed with the ethanol that the mixture becomes corrosive to some metals. Hence, there is no appreciable difference in the corrosive properties between E10 and a 50:50 blend of E10 gasoline and E85 (47.5% ethanol), provided there is no water present, and the engine was designed to accommodate E10. Nonetheless, operation with more than 10% ethanol has never been recommended by car manufacturers in non-FFVs.
Why?? The little bit that you save in money per fill isn't worth the risks involved. If you were that interested in saving money, buy a toyota camery. I guess without the proper gauges to monitor how the motor is running, I wouldn't be putting e85 in my car. Hell, as it is I avaoid using e10 and only run non-oxy in both of my vehicles. Tic-toc, tic-toc.............. Russ
i'm not arguing either way, just trying to get as much info as possible about it. and i agree that running straight e85 in a non flex car is a bad idea, however, running a small mix i dont think, from what i read so far, is not going to tic toc tic toc. as for why its a win win win situation: 1. better for the planet 2. higher octane(110) 3. cheaper that 87 a few of the nasioc guys have been running a strong ratio of it for awhile now and there have not had any problems.
E85 is anywhere from 104-111oct and there is no notification of the actual oct. on a daily basis. Better for the planet? You have to run much more E85 to get the same AFR. So more consumption is better? Does your IAM have enough latitude to pull the required timing to get a safe burn?
I have a fuel flex mini-van and I've been running e85 for about 2 years now but here's the catch... it gives me worst mpg comp to regular 87 oct. On a full 18 gallon of e85 I'm able to get 320+ miles before refill from my 3.3 litre V6. On regular 87 oct, I'm able to push 360+ before refill. Here's what I was told how e85 are made: 52 bushels of corn and a half barrel of crude oil makes 176 gallon. Now running an e85 cars will allow me to burn 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. This also gives me about 15%-20% less mileage according to the e85 specialist I spoke with. I'm better off driving one of the new hybrid or Honda Civic and gets better mpg. The only advantage is e85 burns cleanly compare to regular gas. Another fuel alternative to look at are used vegetable oil, bio-diesel, compressed natural gas, electric and hydrogen fuel cell. I'm still not sure about mixing e85 with premium fuel though. I've read a few articles on it and would like more scientific details to back it up.
ive ran the mix a few times and had no trouble.. i think im gonna start trying again and see what happens
the only problem i ever encountered was hard starting in the colder months, extremly rich, otherwise, make sure you are running synthetic oil, e85 and dino oil DO NOT MIX
Well, you do know that running higher octain than you are tuned for will blow up your motor. If you were to run 110 and are only tuned for 92 it is a matter of time before the rod bearings start to go. Like I said, if you don't have the proper gauges to watch what the motor is doing and it isn't tuned for it, tic toc. Russ
im sorry russ, but why would running certain fuel make rod bearings go out? the pinging? wouldnt that make the piston take a dump before the rod bearing? i dont see how it would hurt them.
^ Jorge was explaining this to us on dyno day. Apparently the point of detonation is later with race gas so if your tuned for 92 the bearing absorbs the brunt of the explosion.
so when i mix 80% 93oct, and 20% 110oct, i'm running what, a combined octane rating of 95-96 or something? So if i'm running the 93 octane cobb mapp, you are telling me 2-3 more octane is going to blow my engine. i guess i'll be living life on the edge then with my 2octane higher gas.:cheers2:
yes running c16 with out a c16 map would be pretty stupid, or even 110 for that matter....but 95, come on.
Really, whats 95 oct. going to do for you, especially when your not tuned for it? Seems like a hassle mixing gas for 95 oct., untuned, on a car not designed to run it. Whatever floats your boat though!
i'll reiterate: 1. car runs smoother 2. cheaper for higher octane, some of us dont have unlimited funds 3. um, its earth friendly and replenishable 4. i will be getting tuned, just weaning my car on it right now 5. doing anything i can to help with oil dependancy, even if its just a small amount at a time. 6. it was my understanding that our cars are designed to run on, what seems to be the common gas now with 10% ethanol. these are the reasons i am interested in it and alot of other ppl are interested in it. i could care less whether you share the same opinions on it because you think my car will automatically blow up, i'm just letting ppl that havent heard about it, know. all the info that the subaru guys know about this is in that first link i posted to nasioc. i suggest reading that first before deciding if it will "blow up your car", so the members can have a choice and dont have to be stuck with what just a few ppl that havent tried it on here think. toodles.
I don't think you'll have trouble with your blend, which is basically E-25 assuming 80% E-10 and 20% E-85. http://www.ethanol.org/pdfs/e30_report.pdf
Well, Pete is kinda right. basically you want the explosion to happen as the piston is in the downward movement. When you change the ocatin, you will be changing the burn rate, so the time when the explosion happens will be different, and if the piston is not in the downward movement, the rob bearing will take the hit. IIRC, Jorge's friend blew up his motor running 100oct on a tuned 93 map. I guess my point to the whole thing is that before you just go out and start mixing gas, you should have the proper tools to monitor the motor to make sure it doesn't explode. I would do ALOT of logging to watch fuel trims and afr. Your stock ecu can only adjust fuel trims to +/- 25%, and with some people's level of mods you are already moving that fuel trim, and once you add the e85 on top of it, you move the trims even farther. Once you max out the fuel trims, ytou will just go super lean. Like I said, if you are not watching what the motor is doing (cuz every car is different), tic toc. Russ
and thus is why i'm logging. must get wb02 though. i can post up a log when i get home. actually its been two days since last log so i'll take some fresh pulls tonight. iirc, a/f learning since e85 mix is around -1.xx still
if he blew it up because of that then he either #1 had crappy oil, #2 didnt change oil often #3 had low oil...ive seen STOCK wrxs eat rods left and right, not because of octane, because of faulty bearings. a rod bearing, a rod, and a crank are meant to withstand alot of shock, 7000+ rpms, if anything the ringlands would take a crap before the piston...no way did gas make him take out a rod bearing. ide believe it if it were on a car that NEVER spun rod bearings, but ive seen at least a dozen in the past 2 years.
Honestly, if you are concerned enough about fuel prices to the point of running an E85 mix just to save a few bucks, you are probably driving the wrong make of car. Cheaper gas, but as demonstrated, poorer fuel economy...sounds like a wash. In the longer run, you'd probably want to have a vehicle that got upper 30's mpg or better to achieve a sizeable savings (i.e., more than just a few dozen bucks over the course of a year). Part of buying a Subaru is the acceptance that you are getting really mediocre fuel economy...sucks, but that's how it is. Not that there is anything wrong with some careful experimentation. Larry (username: hotrod) from NASIOC has been running high concentrations of E85 for well over 2 years now with no ill effects. He was one of the WRX E85 pioneers, so no offense to wikipedia but real world experiences trump armchair expertise in my mind. I would want to have a wideband and be really familiar with the stoichiometric ratio of ethanol vs. gasoline and the equivalence ratio before I did anything, personally.
Then you don't understand the basics of engine thermodynamics, dynamic burn rate, and elementary mechanical advantage. Car was one of our shop cars. Tracked for 40k miles. Maintenance done on it meticulously (being a shop car), beat daily. 20 minutes at gingerman on the wrong map.... crushed bearing. To add to this conversation, as it holds merit; a few octane points, is one thing.... but when you're talking half a dozen points and higher.... you really are only causing fatigue. If you had an aggressive tune to begin with, that becomes even more catastrophic. Heh... but what do I know? E-85, tuned, and in the right concentration is fine. About as dangerous as methenol injection. Jorge (RiftsWRX) www.ProjectWRX.com
