GrimmSpeed Head Porting

After many of you asking, we have made the decision to enter the world of Subaru head porting.

We have hired on a new porting guru here at GrimmSpeed that is a specialist in head work. Bob has spent an unbelievable amount of time porting heads and studying flow characteristics of many different styles of heads. We are very confident that we will now be able to bring you nothing less than the best quality head work with a specialist like him at the helm.

We are currently in the R&D phase. You can see here one of the 2.0 WRX heads that we now have cross sections of to give us a better view of the head's limits. This is a step that most smaller shops don't even take the time and expense to do. As always, we never cut corners here at Grimmspeed.



The important thing to know about headwork is that in order to have a great head for YOUR APPLICATION, you can not take the cookie cutter
approach and buy a Stage XXX head and hope for the best. We at Grimmspeed will take the time to match the correct port profiles, valvetrain upgrades, and ceramic options, to match your driving style. That's right, the best flowing head that will perform great on a GT35R setup for full drag will NOT perform well on your AutoX car. Remember Grimmspeed will take the time to make 100% sure that you end up with the best head setup for YOUR driving needs. We will never sell something that is just labeled 'race' because we want you to buy something with a false sense of
security.

We will be offering a few different flavors of our head porting that when combined with the information we will get from you will square you away with the best head for your needs. Essentially it will be a budget version, street/strip version, and a full race version. More details to come on what each of these packages include.

5 angle and full radius valve jobs are also on the menu. Great head work
has a lot to do with the valve job so it's important to not overlook this area.


example 5 angle valve job. we were just messing around here on one of
our R&D heads, this is not a finished valve job by any means.


We are dedicated to bringing new and exciting products to you and this
is a perfect example of one of them

Justin
www.grimmspeed.com
AIM: GrimmSpd
[email protected]
612.481.5731

 

nice, sounds like a strong entrance with many options

 

Sounds like surgery to me, kinda like unclogging an artery. I'd be interested in hearing what happens next.

 

Vicious thread already. Wow. :ugh:

 

No point intended from my post, I just think this is just too complicated for my head. I'm just looking forward to seeing this all come together. I have a car that could benefit from this service.

 

he wasnt talking about you lol. one of the members posted a typical worthless post. looks like it has been deleted already though.

 

still never answered the question.....

 

or do i have to ask it really really nicely....

ok hear we go...

how do you guys plan on getting each cylinder to flow the same? a flow bench? or are you guys just doing it by looks?

 

you guys do realize every head is not the same so doing a cross section of that one head will not answer all the questions of all heads. for that they make a tool that emits a kind of sonar that measures the thickness of the metal to make sure you don't take to much material.

 

what kinda pricing scale do you think you'll have

 

shhhhhhhhhhh!

i want to see the way they never cut corners and do there work. becouse i thought the same thing and got yelled at for questioning it.

 

I would just feel bad if they jacked up someone's car cause I know I would be angry if it was mine.

 

rd means numbers dog? just would think when a company goes into such a precise and important service they would give a little more info of why to go with them or why they are any better then company's that have their products on race cars and years and years of experience. not just a thread of wishfull thinking. i show interest in this because this is something that i am in the market for as wee speak and have been looking all over for who knows there stuff and is benefiting from this. and every one has provided more info and can show the importance of how precise each port has to flow for the motor to gain from it.

 

To answer the Q's thus far..

Yes there will be flow bench testing involved. We even have access to a wet flow if we really are that interested in the info. But again, don't get too tied up on who's flow #'s are better. I'll take a good dyno sheet over a good flow sheet any day. We do know how to manipulate heads to get powerbands to shift and it can even mean adding material to the ports. Ultimately we are going to bring a matched head to your driving needs. Reread the first post in it's entirety to find out why if this is still unclear.

Yes we are still in the R&D phase of this lineup. That is why we don't have pricing yet, or hard #'s to share. It takes a bit of time to bring this to market properly. Again we are doing this the 'right' way.

Dipp- we are very well aware that every head, casting, and project is unique and that headwork involved a ton of measurements and checks and balances before it can be considered up to our standards. Rest assured that every head we will work on will result in nothing less that than what is advertised. And yes we are familiar with the Dakota sonic tooling for checking wall thickness.

Fobia- If you are truly interested in the work, know that I (Bob) am doing the work for GrimmSpeed here at the shop. I'm sure you already know my background and that I have worked on numerous heads in numerous platforms. I am well versed in heads and what to do to get them to perform.

Be on the lookout for good flow sheets, better dyno #'s and better technologies that will help prolong the life of your valves and seats while reducing detonation and improving the combustion process..... *oops I've said too much* :biggrin:

For those of you who don't know me (Bob) I have been porting heads for over 4 years now (been porting in general much longer than that), and I have come a long way with the people I have worked with and the information and training I have received specific to heads. I own and operate my own business doing this and I am co-located with GrimmSpeed so this arrangement is not only convenient, but also speeds up these projects.

With that said, I will say 'Hi' to everyone and I look forward to bringing the very best solutions to your doorstep soon!

 

nice to finally get some info. will this flow bench work be done in hose or sent out? and i agree with you on dyno numbers to flow numbers but the flow of each cylinder being equal is a big deal as you would know and why i ask. sorry about my worthless posts". lol! feel free to show more info on your operation and how you plan on going upon you head porting.

 

Both the wet and dry benching are outsourced and not done in house. The important thing is that unlike a lot of buff and fluff porting houses, we will be taking the correct steps to ensure that a quality product is delivered. We will also be port mapping the end result so repeatablilty is a non-issue.

You are correct about ensuring that there is not an imbalance of flow between cyls. This is a basic check that we do on all of our heads.

Don't worry about the Q's but please don't ask for too many specifics for two reasons, 1) we are sill in development so anything I do share may not be the same when it comes time for production and 2) the time, money, and effort we are putting into developing the correct port shapes and valve jobs is not something that we will openly share for obvious reasons. Flow #'s and dyno #'s, sure, but the port maps or port profiles will remain the intellectual property of GrimmSpeed and any of the end users.

 

Call me up when you start porting cast iron


also good luck grimmspeed crew! this looks promising!

 

outsourcing that is not in your best interest. if this is something you guys want to have a decent turn around time on i would consider having one in house. with all your experience i would think you would know that you sometimes have to flow bench a number of times before things start equaling out unless you settle at ''good enough'' or ''it looks the same''.

 

So it seems that you know whats best for us... but you are not knowledgeable in our specific niche in the industry so how is this possible? Sure you are a performance enthusiast, but you are a more of a welder (from what I know) and not a flow specialist so who are you really to say what is 'best' for our plans? I've seen your welding work and the weld quality is fine but do you really thing 5-6 wedge shaped sections welded together will outflow a mandrel bent version? Even if you did manage to go back in and remove the slag from each section as you built it up?.... We deal with CFM and flow not what looks cool or 'race'.

Yes, someday we will have a flow bench in house and that will speed up R&D but it is not as if we won't be able to have predictable and REPEATABLE results from our initial design. Last time I checked 2" is 2" and the fact that we have precision measuring equipment and the knowledge of how to map out ports, we can get 10 heads to repeat the same profiles over and over again.

Things are much more complicated when it comes to heads, head designs, and flow theory than most are willing to take the time to learn. That's why we are here.

Essentially your main instigation or inquiry seems to be revolving around repeatability of results and I have hopefully explained that this aspect of the process is thought of, and taken care of. A valid concern, don't get me wrong, but a concern that is more of a non-issue with our process.

Should this not be an acceptable option for you, please give us a call or stop by the shop for a more in depth answer. Otherwise, feel free to get your headwork elsewhere. We are not forcing you shop with us.

-Bob

 

I have done iron head portwork (more on the Ford side of things) so we may be able to help you out. Besides, the majority of the exhaust mani's we do are cast iron/steel anyway.

Thanks for the compliments too!

-Bob

 

wow touchy. it crazy how you met me a few times and you know how much i know? i know the difference between flow on pie cuts and a mandrel bend. some times you cant get a mandrel bend tight enough so you use pie cuts. you must know all the work i have done with my car has been done on accident and havn't looked into anything that i want to do to my car.lol! i might not know all there is to porting a head right but every body i have spoke with story's all match up but yours. they all say that they flow bench a head many times if porting by hand so they match each port. not matching ports can couse lean cylinders and a unhealthy motor. and all the porters i talked to give you the numbers it flowed on a spec sheet specific to your head. when you don't have a flow bench in house to do this i don't see how you plan to be able to have a safe product.

no i will not be going with you guys and never will. how ever people who are considering this job should know the full story before they get work done. every thing i hear from you guys seems shady and fail to back up what you say your product is going to do. it might be r&d for you guys right now but with all your experience with head porting i would think you would have better answers and explanations on what you are doing. like i stated in the first post and you even said your self how important getting each cylinder to flow the same is but you flow bench one head and get numbers and try to match the rest of the heads to that by mapping it with looks? the only time i wouldn't want numbers on how much my head flows after porting would be if i got them cnc ported. but from what it sounds like you guys do is flow one head and give those numbers out with every head you map through looks and say they all flow that.

you know even on bigger forums ware there is more people that speak up and question a vendor's product, the vendor comes out with a better explanation or at least tries to inform you how there processes are good or why they should be better to go with then other company's rather the keep info hush hush and say "We are not forcing you shop with us". props on the way you do business.....

 

Fobia, have I not answered all your Q's? If not, please let me know what I left out and I will be happy to answer. What actually bothers you to the point to call it/us 'shady'? What part of our 'story doesn't matchup'? I would like you to CLEARLY state this alone so I can properly address it.

Everything you posted was in regards to repeatability and I have stated that I AGREE that if there is unbalance that it is not good. I have also said that we have proven techniques that involve port mapping, and numerous checks and balances so we have repeatability with high tolerances. The kind of procedures that are specific to this industry and that people are trained for... Is there anything about this that is not clear? QC is not an issue as we have things in place to ensure these aspects are covered. Your comment about porting by 'looks' is NOT how we port here so I don't know what you are getting at. If anything you are solidifying our case as everything you have mentioned for QC control we have answers for.

As far as keeping things 'hush hush' as you mention, was in regards to our port shape, not the process of porting and checking. Have we not been open about everything else?

Just so this doesn't turn out to be a bash fest between fobia and I, does anyone else have concerns or questions at this point? Are there things that seem 'shady' or bad to the rest of the viewers? (I have a feeling that this onslaught by fobia was brought on by outside forces and isn't genuine) We are putting our best foot forward and will do what it takes to ensure that our product lineup is nothing less that the best performing solutions available.

-Bob

 

I was thinking the other day (when you posted this)...wouldn't it be sweet if a manufacturer/vendor could offer completely flow matched intake/exhaust manifolds, with the heads to go with it, as a matched, complete system?

 

YES

THIS.... making statements like this makes your company and those who represent it childish and lame... I think I have seen that Fobia is a big boy and can think his own thoughts... not to mention build his own car better then 95% of the members (including myself) on this site


Matt isn't the only one who questions a new/young/un-established business making a lot of unfounded/unproven claims and round-a-boutly criticising other companies who are already set up...

I wish you guys the best... looking forward to seeing you grow etc etc... but I have seen many things in type on posts claiming superiority and backed up by fanboys who buy stuff cause they can click a button NOT use a welder or wrench...

 

lol! out side sources? im sitting hear reading your answers and providing info to your info thats still hasn't been clear. when you come out claiming you "will take the time to make 100% sure that you end up with the best head setup" i want a clear answer then all the mumbo jumbo you state in your post. and if i want to know something further about the stuff im sure others do too? and from all the skipping around the question answers you keep giving and telling me to call or meet up for further questions makes me want to keep going in this thread.

proven techniques as you say means nothing to anyone? how do you tell people that when they buy a head from you?

customer: hey how doese my head flow now compared to the stock one?
grimmspeed: better. we use proven techniques when we port.
customer: how much better do the flow?
grimmspeed: i can give you the flow bench numbers of the first head we did? we use proven techniques so we dont need numbers.

 

SubeN'Siren- I'm sure there would be no problem either ensuring a match to an existing intake/exhaust setup or as a package as you described. Good question!

TSTRBOY2004- please explain why the 'yes' in your first Q. Then I will be able to respond to it.
I was unaware that GrimmSpeed was a young, unestablished company. I would think that the growth in the national market alone would be enough to justify a little respect, but it is your opinion never the less. However where have we make unfounded or unproven claims? If you are referring to this thread, I hope you did read the first post as this is a prerelease and a things to come thread with the results to follow... at this point we have no port dimensions, port profiles, valve setups, flow #'s or dyno #'s and we have been open about this.

Fobia- If I have offended you in any way, I do apologize. I hope that my responses (Bob) have not effected anyone's view of Grimmspeed or Justin as I am ultimately the knowledgeable outsourced help that just happens to be in house. You have done well with your build, better than most even. It is comments like your second post here that are not comming off as inquisitive or innocent but have an overtone of trying to 'poke holes in theory' demeanor. Make sense? This is where My defensiveness comes in. Again, if it is unjustified, I do apologize. I hope that you can at least identify how I can see it this way.

Fobia-How am I skipping around questions? In my last post I specifically asked you to isolate what you thought was 'shady' and let me respond to it. I don't see it yet. I would expect your next post to have this Q ready.

Fobia- your pretend customer interaction is false and unwarranted. We will have flow testing available for those that want it, so this flow testing and the questioning about our QC is unwarranted. You've been stuck on the whole flow bench not being in house, and while it is an inconvenience not having it here, stop acting like we are not even using it on a continual basis. You make a point that this is an important too, we agree and state that we are in fact using one, but this still seems to be an issue.... why?

Ok, if you want proven techniques... it is possible to identically recreate a port profile from a molding process that allows us to see, feel, measure, and manipulate the port outside of the head. With this precision mold we are able to reproduce the exact port profile. There are static points of measurement in every head, the intake or exhaust flange, valve guide, and valve seat are all examples of this. Essentially there is a lot of cross checking and measuring, but last time I checked .015" over here is still .015" over there. Is it as good as CNC? In the hands of the right operator, most definately. This is where I (Bob) come in as I have the experience to back this up. If you have to question this then just know that I generally get my reproduction ports within 2-5cfm of each other (~2%). Also at some point Justin may end up having this port profile digitized for cnc production. That's right we can still cnc the design if there is merit for it. The finish of cnc doesn't promote as good of flow as a hand ported version (my opinion I know that there will be others that disagree) and the cnc version will miss some spots in most castings from the variances that naturally occur from the sand casting procedure that most modern day heads are cast from. This also can throw off cnc'd version's total cfm's when compared to the original. But expect the CNC version to be more expensive as well.

In short, we have the tooling, processes, and talent to be able to measure and recreate any point in a referenced port. Just because you don't understand a relatively common technique in our industry does not mean that we are misrepresenting what we are capable of doing, or are being misleading. Most markets I work in (dodge, mitsu, hundai, honda) typically have never lead the inquisition that I see here. Perhaps the semantics of this process most people don't want to know, perhaps they are just more concerned about the results...

Have I answered all Q's satisfactorily?

-Bob

 

the yes was to your question.. then I also highlighted in the 2nd qoute of the first... I cant figure out if this is BOb or justin posting.. if Justin I will say previoulsy there were al sorts of claims and statements about his new product, but had NO data to prove it... then they KINDA got some but nobody kept questioning the statements but Fobia, so it dropped of the map...

I cna get growth with anything.. sell product cheap.. then lots of people buy.. then update product for a lot more $$$$.. I think Grimmspeed has grown phenomenally over the last 1.5yrs, and kudos... but there has also been quite a few friendships/relationships that have been burnt over that time too... but it was everyone elses fault...

either way.. glad you are so gung-ho for Justin and Grimmspeed... watching for a thread within the next 12mths about the new split...

 

if I failed to mention....

Congrats on the partnership....


Back to other topics that really interest me... like this or that.. something with substance

 

Good then, hopefully I have answered your Q in my post :biggthumpup:

I can't say anything about the previous arrangements (because I don't know) that Justin may have had with testing or results, but the bench flowing, r&d, and everything having to do with this project is being done my way (Bob) so hoepully this will be a non issue.

I don't know what you mean about a split, I am a separate company that co locates with justin in St. Paul so essentially we are already split I guess. If you are referencing employee relations, I see how he operates day in and day out and I think that he handles the growth of his business well and also handles his employees well too.

-Bob

 

well I dont know squat so thats all I am saying on this.... ha ha ha

again... good luck

 

I got the opportunity to tour the Evernham engine building facility about 2 years ago (no cameras allowed, dangit). I was surprised to see a team of about 16 guys assigned to manually craft each intake manifold and head with a lathe and hand tools. Different port profiles and layouts for different motors, for different tracks.

I never believed that it could be so accurate, but our buddy (who is a CNC technician) claimed they could make identical parts every time.

Best of luck to you!

 

Wow, this thread got out of hand in the typical MNSubaru fashion.

Bob, good luck. We'll hold our questions for another time or PM you if we want to continue this dialogue.