Interest in building a 24h of Lemons car?

Discussion in 'General Subaru Discussion' started by EricS, Aug 20, 2014.

  1. EricS
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    EricS Nooberator

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    Since winter is slowly but surely approaching, I was wondering if there is a group of folks here who would seriously be interested in building a 24h of Lemons car as a winter project : ) I figure that we've got some great fabricators/welders/techs on this site, plus lots of us who aren't but still like to pretend we are. Plus between all the members I'm sure that we've got a ton of cheap sh*t cars to pick from as a starting point, as well as a boatload of engines and parts that we could scrounge together and still keep under the $500 limit!! Justy with an STI engine?? Actually, maybe we could use @Terry Ammerman haunted Legacy chassis, and go with some sort of paranormal theme : D

    Let me know if you'd be seriously interested in helping out, your skills/interests, parts you could 'sell' for the project, ideas, a place to wrench (preferably heated and with a lift?)

    It would be a blast!! : )
     
  2. TMF
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    TMF Well-Known Member

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    Curran and I kicked around this idea pretty seriously a year or two ago, but never pulled the trigger. It takes a lot of time and money...and more time and more money. Would be a ton of fun though! I don't think that I'm at a point in life where I could fully commit though.
     
  3. glen
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    glen Well-Known Member

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    I know there are a few other ChumpCar racers on here if you want more general advice on budget endurance racing. The Lemons schedule in this area isn't great (closest race is Autobahn in Chicago and then two races at Gingerman in Michigan). There is also World Racing League that should add a few more options for next year. These series are each going in slightly different directions, but if possible I would suggest trying to keep your build legal (if not competitive) for all 3. Get a few guys together and go to a race to see what you are getting into, all the teams are very friendly and willing to talk with you. Next year's schedules should be out in late October.
     
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  4. EricS
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    EricS Nooberator

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    C'mon Jordan, because racecar! Everyone's crazy busy for their own reasons, not going to get any easier when there's ankle munchers running around sucking up money : ) Besides, who wouldn't want to run stuff you could never get away with on the street - open downpipe spitting flames out the side of the car, an EWG the dia of most people's exhaust dumping out the hood, etc :D

    Ed: oh yeah, for you I guess it would be race suspension, not a bushing in sight, etc ;)
     
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  5. Threshld1
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    Threshld1 Well-Known Member

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    I crewed on a Chump team since the first Brainerd race and have been running my own Chump/WRL team (see facebook link below) the last three years. If you are just getting into endurance road racing I highly suggest renting a seat with another team. If you really want to run your own car I would start off by buying one. It is exponentially cheaper to get a decent sorted Chump/WRL/Lemons car than to build one. Unless you have piles and piles of money you have burning a hole, then go for it. It's a lot of fun just understand it takes boatloads of resources. We typically see around $800-1200 a driver per race at just operating costs. This go up a lot from there if something breaks. It is one of the cheapest ways to get ~4 hours of door to door seat time on real tracks.
     
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  6. Nhibbs
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    Nhibbs Well-Known Member

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    where would I go about buying one of these already made chump/lemons cars?
     
  7. readymix
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    readymix ...Lest ye be trod upon... Staff Member

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    From all the people I've ever talked to that do this, I can assure you that you don't want to run a turbo Subaru. In fact, for some of these series, you probably couldn't enter one anyway just on vehicle dollar values alone. A Justy or any Subaru with an STi swap is going to put your over budget. I would focus on what Threshld said about renting or buying pre-prepped. Or look at other makes entirely.
     
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  8. Threshld1
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    Threshld1 Well-Known Member

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    They show up now and again, its just a question of how far you have to go to get it. Best places to look would be the WRL, Chump, and Lemons forums.
     
  9. Threshld1
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    Threshld1 Well-Known Member

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    https://www.facebook.com/CrankYankersRacing
    These guys run Subaru in chump. They have broken at least 4 EG33's so far. It seems they just aren't great cars for endurance road racing. Not that our golf is either, we have to beat it to an inch of its life to get it to perform and use nothing but new driveline parts nearly every race. Even then stuff fails.
     
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  10. JasonoJordan
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    JasonoJordan Well-Known Member

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    If you are looking at a cheap reliable Subaru motor you can't beat the 2.2. But like Jason said you will have a hard time staying under the money threshold
     
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  11. readymix
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    readymix ...Lest ye be trod upon... Staff Member

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    Let me clarify on the budget thing. And I haven't read the latest rules, but in the past, they set a max dollar amount you can spend on your car minus safety equipment/required equipment. I think the number was 1500 or something. If you enter a car with an STi swap, and you've spent 5-10k putting that engine in there, the event coordinators can say to you "We want to buy your racecar" and will offer you the 1500 max value for it, and you get to remove the safety stuff, but you have to sell it to them. It's in the rules. So, be prepared to lose all the money you sunk into that car, less the 1500 they will pay you for it. It's what keeps some pud from bringing their "beater" Ferrari to the race and getting the easy trophy.
     
  12. Threshld1
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    Threshld1 Well-Known Member

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    If you are wanting to get into it you have to read the rules before anything. I haven't done any Lemons so I cant speak to that.
    Chump has a novel of a rule book that makes your head hurt. As far as the STI swap it would be accounted for with engine out and engine in valuation. There is no way you could get an STI swap in without tons of penalty laps or being put in the EC class.
    WRL has a really short rule book and does not deal with any of the arbitrary car valuation. It is simple power to weight. If you want to swap an engine in and you are within the classed weight/power ranges you can run.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2014
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  13. TMF
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    TMF Well-Known Member

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    Lots of good advice here already, but I would definitely capitalize this advice: go watch one of these events (or several) and also volunteer to work on someone's crew. Then step up to renting a spot and driving for a weekend.

    And yes, I have seen chump cars for sale, and buying an already-built car will be exponentially cheaper.

    For Eric's sake, perhaps we should keep this thread geared towards finding interested parties, vs all of the barriers to entry.

    Eric - trust me, I totally want to. But it is already hard enough for me to keep one race car properly maintained and subsequently find the time to race the darn thing. I haven't even made it to BIR yet this year!
     
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  14. blackozone
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    blackozone Well-Known Member

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    I've operated a team for 3 years in CCWS and this year in WRL. I've been through both rulebooks and have a base idea of LeMons rules. Here's tips based on your info so far:
    1) An STI swapped-anything will probably not be allowed in any of the budget endurance series. Definitely not competative in CCWS (they'll put you in "Exhibition Class" or saddle you with so many penalty laps you won't be able to keep up with the top 5 teams), WRL might let it in (they class based on power-to-weight ratios), but they always hold the right to re-class you if the car appears like it's going to be too competitive.
    2) Avoid turbos for endurance racing unless you have a ton of disposable income. I'm not exaggerating.
    3) Subarus are few-and-far between. More competitive and simpler platforms exist.
    4) Go to a race or two and watch. You'll get an idea of what people face in running these races.
    5) Buy one that's build already. I've been involved in building 2 cars for this. Just buy one that's ready-to-go and already sorted.
    6) Quite literally, buy nice or buy twice. Don't cheap out on this.

    If you want to see our car/meet our team, we're in Rochester if you want to see it all in person. I'd love to answer questions as well.
    With all these warnings though, I will have to say that it's all a ton of fun. Just take the advice of those that have been through it to heart.
     
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  15. blackozone
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    blackozone Well-Known Member

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    Also, we'll be doing a CCWS race at Road America in October. I'd recommend going to that one, it's a phenominal track.
     
  16. Nhibbs
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    Nhibbs Well-Known Member

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    So which platforms are most competitive for these races? Are we talking civics? miatas?
     
  17. EricS
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    EricS Nooberator

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    Thanks all, good food for thought!

    I should have sprinkled a lot more smileys through my post(s), I was totally joking about the STI swap!! :blink:

    ed. - is there an smiley people use for 'irony/joking' on this forum? On saab92x.com they started using this, for some reason, but everyone knows what it means so it works out well: [​IMG]
     
  18. Nhibbs
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    Nhibbs Well-Known Member

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  19. blackozone
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    blackozone Well-Known Member

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    The good list on there is a good place to start, but BMW E30s and E36s are great platforms as well as Miatas.
    First thing to do is identify what series you want to focus your efforts on. My team avoids LeMons altogether. It seems to be more interested in having a parade than actual racing.
    CCWS has a rulebook you could use to kill small animals, so if you're into D&D it could be fun. However, the series lends itself to prejudice against specific models. They seem to be favoring E30s and Mustangs this year. The E36 has been made almost non-competitive altogether.
    WRL has pretty loose rules. You'll see 2nd-gen Integras racing alongside Porsche Boxsters.
     
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  20. EricS
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    EricS Nooberator

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    And just to provide a little more context, for me personally the part that seems fun is the build; putting something totally crazy together over the winter, to keep the boredom away. Like the MR2 with the aircraft radial engine :D I don't really care all that much about the driving myself, I enjoy wrenching... I would be happy being at the back of the pack if the car didn't break down (too much), made it through the race, and was a blast to bring/look at/drive.

    Other people might have totally different visions of what's important to them, in terms of competitiveness and seriousness etc.
     
  21. EricS
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    EricS Nooberator

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    Could be fun to run a Protege/323 of some sort, Fox Mustang, old Corolla RWD, ultra-stripped 5 series, a 914, ???

    I think I'd prefer to have a RWD car just for the driving dynamics...
     
  22. EricS
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    EricS Nooberator

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  23. TMF
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    TMF Well-Known Member

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    Eric - I may be down to go and watch the race at Road America in October. My schedule is currently open that weekend.

    Blackozone - I had no idea that you raced in Chump Car, very cool. Do you guys ever sell seats/spots on your team for events? I may not be down to fully join a team for a season, but I'd def consider driving for one event.
     
  24. glen
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    glen Well-Known Member

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    Putting together a team is probably the hardest part, pretty much everything else just comes down to time and money, so you need teammates that you can count on for that. I'll be at Road America in October also, it's a truly awesome track, easily the best one to go to as a spectator. BMW's are by far the most popular in this area, but it's a good to stick with what you know, nothing wrong with a Subaru there are a few being raced, but make sure reliability is your #1 priority (and #2 and #3).
     
  25. blackozone
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    blackozone Well-Known Member

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    I currently have 5/6 drivers on my team. We get so many inquiries about renting seats that I'm seriously considering building a 2nd one just to rent out to.
    The funny part of that, though, is that when I only had 3 people (most races require 4) I couldn't get a 4th driver for quite a while (went through a few "applicants" before finding someone that would commit). Once we had a team and car put together though, suddenly we get all kinds of people asking for a drive, including previous "applicants".

    Anyway, Glen has been in this game longer than I have so listen to his advice (I do). Put together a solid team of dependable people before undertaking building a car together. Then, start thinking about making the car last before making it fast. You can't put down fast laps if you're broken in the pits (I have many stories for you).
     
  26. Nhibbs
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    Nhibbs Well-Known Member

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    How would a Ford probe do in one of these?
    Paging @derp haha
     
  27. EricS
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    EricS Nooberator

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    [​IMG]

    Ford Probe


    Occasionally, someone will ask us “What’s the straight-up quickest road-race car I can get for a legitimate 500 bucks?” If you’ve got the track to yourself and you only need the car to survive a couple of laps, we’d say that the answer to that question is the Ford Probe (the Acura Integra comes in a very close second). Considering that Dodge Neons have won more LeMons races than Probes and Integras combined, it’s clear that raw lap time is essentially meaningless in this kind of racing. When you consider the dismal catastrophic-failure rate of the Probe (and its Mazda MX-6 sibling) in LeMons—the only engine that fails in more spectacular, fireball-and-spray-of-parts fashion than the Golf’s is the Probe’s, whether the L4 or the V-6—it comes as a shock that the existing Probe teams haven’t exhausted the nation’s supply of junkyard engines by now.
     
  28. EricS
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    EricS Nooberator

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    Actually, Neons do pretty good, you want to get in on the action @belalegosi? :frantic:
     
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  29. blackozone
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    blackozone Well-Known Member

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    There's a team from Canada that knows Neons very well. They've proven to be irritatingly competitive.
     
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  30. glen
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    glen Well-Known Member

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    If I could tolerate FWD (not that it makes much difference at this power level, but I'm a purist :O) a Neon would be at the top of my list, they strip down pretty light and the 2.4 appears to be a straightforward swap.
     
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  31. TMF
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    TMF Well-Known Member

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    I don't mean to go too off topic here (I sound like a hypocrite) but....it's obvious that pushing a street car for a 24 hour endurance race(s) is going to end up in some sort of engine failure, but I'd imagine that it is normally due to overheating, loss of oil/oil pressure, etc. Is there any value in beefing up the cooling (bigger radiator) and oiling systems (catch can or dry sump, etc)? Or are the failures normally due to just stock components?

    I find it somewhat surprising that Honda's are prone to blowing up, because as street cars, they are pretty reliable.
     
  32. Shancaldazar
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    Shancaldazar Well-Known Member

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    I think the biggest problem is, that this is a 24 hour race. Drive a normal road car for 24 hours on the streets and it can do it no problem. Start racing for 24 hours (however fast or slow) and it's a lot of strain.

    Cooling (for both oil and coolant) and a good oiling system are critical for endurance. Subaru's own 24 Hour car for the nurburgring uses 95% stock parts and has proven to be extremely reliable. That is in part due to that fact that the oil and cooling capabilities have been vastly upgraded (there is a reason many top end production cars that are meant to be track day beasts come with dry sumps- they make a massive difference). About the only work STi does on their endurance car is suspension tuning, aero tuning, and cooling/oiling upgrades. Everything else is mostly left alone. They've been super competitive in their class (as in clearly the dominant team) but have had a few accidents with other cars causing them to finish 4th this year and 2nd before that (1st for all other previous years IIRC).

    Also, I'll be at college over this winter, but when I'm home I'd love to work on project car, whether we decide for endurance racing, rallyx, or whatever. Subaru or not, I've got a ton of tools and know how to use them :)
     
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  33. derp
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    derp Well-Known Member

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    you can't have it.
     
  34. TMF
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    TMF Well-Known Member

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    I think Eric has found his mechanic or tool nerd at the least!
     
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  35. Curry
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    Curry Well-Known Member

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    I am very interested. We should discuss this. Also, RWD FTW
     
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  36. EricS
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    EricS Nooberator

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    Alright, see you next Tuesday :) Maybe @Shancaldazar come come out too?
     
  37. Curry
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    Curry Well-Known Member

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    Three solid choices:

    -SR20 based FWD Nissan/Infiniti
    -E30 BMW
    -Honda Civic/Prelude
     
  38. blackozone
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    blackozone Well-Known Member

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    MR2s are great, too.
     
  39. Curry
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    Curry Well-Known Member

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    True, but hard to find in the price range and people "my size" in a caged mr2 is a tight fit, especially with a helmet.
     
  40. Nhibbs
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    Nhibbs Well-Known Member

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    E28 535i is my vote
     
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  41. EricS
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    EricS Nooberator

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    Old Volvo??

    I thought the MR2 was the most notorious "you'd think it would work well, but it will asplode ASAP" models in Lemons history?
     
  42. EricS
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    EricS Nooberator

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    Me too :)
     
  43. blackozone
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    blackozone Well-Known Member

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    Don't know anything about Lemons, but there's very few Volvos in the other series.
    MR2s with V6 swaps are typically faster than hell. As with any car, no matter what you pick, knowing your platform well and preparing it to last will make the difference between breaking and finishing.
     
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  44. tangledupinblu
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    tangledupinblu Event Coordinator Staff Member

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    And Lee and i both like "finishing".
     
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  45. belalegosi
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    belalegosi Well-Known Member

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    I'm down. I already have enough spare parts laying around too. I've been meaning to get rid of the ole winter beater.... lol

    I believe I know who that is :frantic::alien2:

    The 2.4 swap pretty much drops in and looks like stock... after you swap valve covers.
    Cheap parts, easily accessible... why not? :bounce:

    I've also thought about this too. A friend of mine out in California does the lemon races with this 1g neon and is highly competitive. The problem for me was/is the place to work on stuff and the cost.
    I too was advised to expect north of $800 per race per driver.
     
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