Legacy GT upgrades for track days?

I have a stock 2009 Legacy GT and I've taken it to a couple of track days (Pacific Raceways HPDC in Seattle, WA) and of course I'm totally hooked. I don't think you can have a pulse, do an event like that and not be hooked. I use the car as a family car, but don't drive it much because I work out of my house.

I'm thinking of eeeeaasssing into the track day thing, and might put a little money into the car. I am looking for advice as far as what changes make sense, in what order. Reading here and elsewhere leads me to:

1. Tires first - maybe Continental ExtremeContact DW for summer, keep the stock Potenza all-seasons until they wear out, then get snowtires to replace them in the winter. I'm new to MN, so this whole winter tires thing is a new adventure. The tires should be useful on the street and not crazy expensive, but decent for the casual track day too.

2. Wheels second (?) With two sets of tires, two sets of wheels seem to make sense. But I'm not vain about it and I'm not rich either. If I use the stocks in the winter and get summer wheels, what's a good make for daily use and a handful of track days a year?

I'm thinking I'd keep the same size wheels and tires as stock since huge wheels and extremely low profile tires won't help handling much past the 17s on the car already. I could go 18, I guess, to match the spec.B and maybe get some cornering advantage. Bigger doesn't seem like it'd help.

3. Next, budget permitting, would be a pair of ant-roll bars. Anyone with experience here? What I read is that the Legacy is prone to understeer (I'll vouch for that because the first track day was in the rain, and it plowed forward something fierce) and roll in corners, and that ASBs are a good investment both to keep 'er level in the corners and adjust the grip front to back.

4. If I somehow get good at this and remain addicted I'd do springs/struts and lower the car, but tastefully

I think power mods and exhaust would be last on my list (this is my age showing, I guess). Until I get to be a half-decent driver, stock horsepower is enough. And reliability is important to me. For me sounding fast is less important than driving well.

Advice? Experience?

Many thanks

 

Thanks man. Lots to think about. BIR is definitely on my radar . The guy who coached me at Pacific has a buddy there and recommended it highly.

 

Welcome!

First off I would say skip the extremecontacts. They aren't a bad tire, but most of the reviews I have seen around legacygt.com say to avoid them because they have a lot softer sidewall than comparible tires. With as heavy as the legacy is, I would opt for something else.

As far as wheels go, rotas are pretty damn popular.if you stick to 17s, you can shove more rubber under the car. There's a bronze set for sale on here right now.

I will second what Josh said about brakes. Mandatory if you plan to track the car. Don't get sucked into the cash for a brembo setup: its overkill unless you make it a dedicated track car. A quality set of pads, rotors, stainless lines and good fluid should be all you need. Grimmspeed also makes a master cylinder brace that can stiffen up the feel of the brake pedal.

For sway bars, there are a ton of options. Whiteline is popular, otherwise there is cobb, avo, perrin...One think I would look at if you go that rote is the AVO mount reinforcements... the stock points have been known to snap off of the subframe... hello expensive.

Josh mentioned the kyb agx for suspension, however they are not made for the lgt. Silly josh. For struts most people seem to recommend either the spec b bilsteins or koni yellows. Konis are more wallet friendly. There are many options for springs as well. Stay away from the cheapo tiens, but the higher end ones are alright from what I have seen. Other options are swifts, epics (eibach under a different name), h&rn etc...

Lastly, as far as power mods go, at least hit stage 2. All that is required is a downpipe and a tune. I would recommend doing a boost control solenoid as well, I have the grimmspeed bit. Nuke tuned the car, he knows what he is doing. Otherwise there is the cobb accessport, and various other off the shelf options. Trust me, you'll like stage 2. Its not ridiculous, bur it makes the car much more punchy.

Again, welcome!

 

1)
Conti's are GREAT daily driver tires... but tangledupinblu is right. they're too soft for really hard driving like track. Their soft sidewalls are squirmy and tread is wiggly. You may even end up with chunking. Z1 Star Specs are excellent, and a new Z2 model is due out in the coming months.

2) wheels and tires are definitely a pretty matched pair. Enkei Motorsports series tend to be fairly to very light, well priced, and offers good fitment. I've got the RPF-01 on my WRX, and i'll probably be putting my extra set on the legacy. Anything bigger than 17" is basically detrimental to your handling. you need some sidewall for proper handling, unless you're on a crazy r-comp.

3) BRAKES!
the legacy has excelently sized rotors and calipers. some braided lines, good pads, and a full flush will be a big deal. You should probably look into pads that are too hot for street use, but will resist fade. you'll want to change them after use to something milder for daily use.

4) I'd do struts first, along with some camber bolts or you'll chew the outsides of your tires off. Koni is your best bet, as they will be adjustable unlike the bilstiens.

 

You know my motto, keep it simple if she's working fine and in good order, drive it like it is especially if you're serious about your driving. Adding parts and power prematurely will only hide your flaws and prevent you from achieving your fullest potential. Try this route and you've got plenty in the budget for seat time.

Welcome and its great to see another driver join the board. Skippy dee hope.

 

Pacific Raceways is one of the tracks on my list. What are your thoughts about this track?

My first post was just a quick response. Below are some after thoughts and don't believe that guy Josh, he's a bit crazy; I'm crazier but you can trust me. lol

1. All cars in America are going to understeer, especially Subaru's. It's great if you're still learning to go fast, but bad if you already know how. One of the best ways to tackle this problem is with great tires with lots of speed. Yes, it sounds backwards but without the proper speeds you will not be able to rotate the car and you cannot and should not try this with cheap tires.

2. We had upgraded our 1998 GC w/LGT brakes with Hawk HP+ pads and we're able to be competitive with cars that have STI Brembos on the track. Brakes are not just for stopping, they're used for weight transfer-increasing tire patch and rotation. Your braking performance will depend on your tires and your ability to manage your speeds and that will depend on your braking technique. Braking IMO is the hardest technique to learn.

3. When we buy parts we all wish it to help make our lives easier, but in fact they often do the opposite. Learning to drive your car as a whole is very important, setting up your car to work together is very difficult. And teaching yourself to learn to adapt to the car and it's conditions may be easier then you'd think. So before you start spending your money on parts, be the suspension, be the brakes, be the enabler, be the cool kid that comes to the track with a short list and drives everyone's pants off like the guy in the Geo Prizm at a BMW event. LOL

What you'll find is as you become better you'll require better and finer tools which will cost more, until then keep it simple, keep it fun and keep the spouse happy.

 

Sage advice. From what everyone's said I am leaning toward just tires, maybe wheels and tires for convenience changing them, and maybe brakes to start with. Is it sane to keep the stock brakes but do lines, fluid and pads only, as Shane suggests?

 

Pacific Raceways is awesome (from my limited experience, anyway). It's an older track, but a really fun layout with a nice elevation change, great variety of turns. The straight is a little odd because it's "bent" in the middle in order to miss the dragstrip starting area, which in the past was a problem because it can be so slick. I really had a great time driving that track. The school there is run by Don Kitch of Team Seattle / Patrick Dempsey Le Mans fame, and he's just a wonderful guy http://www.proformanceracingschool.com/ and http://www.teamseattle.com/the-drivers/

 

I would definitely do lines, fluid, and pads in the stock brakes to start with.

 

I'd do option C. Brake fluid and track time. What you may find is you may either not be up to par with the car or that you are and require a much more aggressive pad. Remember you do NOT want to use a more aggressive pad then what your tires can offer as far as grip. Otherwise let me introduce you to Mr. Understeer version 2.0 lol

 

Maybe consider a track day car. Get a old GC impreza (if you want to stick to subaru... but a miata or even a civic can be made into a respectable track car relativly cheap) You dont want to be left without a DD if something were to happen at the track. That is what I would do money and space permitting.

 

Henry, that's really funny in a tragic way. Two years ago in Seattle I had a really perfect '97 Miata for this but couldn't justify keeping it. I couldn't sell it for much either, which was painful. Hindsight is 20/20 right? Jeez. . We have another car, and I work from home, so if something horrible happens to the Legacy it'll be sad but not a serious problem. But your advice is good!

 

Entirely agreed. Getting it right is REALLY, REALLY HARD.

Remember Brake function isn't always about clamping force. multiple factors exist. the diameter of the rotor is often one of the biggest ones people mis-interpret when they look at big brembos. Yes, the added mass will help temps handle better, but really it's the simple concept of the lever.

Hold a screw driver, with one hand on the driving shaft, and one hand on the handle. Pinch as hard as you can on the driving shaft, and turn it with the handle hand. really really hard to stop it, right? now try and turn the shaft end while stopping with the handle. Alot easier right?

The brakes on the legacys are HUGE. the rotors are damn near as big as the brembos that come on the STI, and that makes a huge deal. a good set of pads makes a huge deal in these cars, as the ones on them are very biased towards being quiet and smooth for the car's target market. Going out on the stock pads isn't going to kill you or anything, they just won't hold up real well, and will probably overeheat/fade fairly early. you'll feel it starting to happen. I'd definitely suggest throwing a spare set of pads in your track kit though. just in case.

Fluid is huge in keeping the brakes from boiling, definitely do that.. and if you've gotta bleed and flush the whole system, $100 isn't a bad investment in a set of stainless braided lines. doing it once is nice.

 

Here's the most important thing to keep in mind, these are building blocks and we can talk IE shop all day all night and that won't do anything for you other then just cause more confussion as both our benchmarks are not the same. Starting simple simply means getting a good base line on your car and you. You've gotta find the weak link if you wanna fix it. Get a good working car out there and you'll make the adjustments as a responsible driver and make the most of your day. Throw too much on the car and you'll find out nothing is working right and you've spent your day trying to figure out whats wrong. Everyone talks about how they'd like to get more speed, more power and faster times, but in reality they've got plenty on board. If you focus on starting with the basics, speed will come naturally whether you want it or not.

I offer this to all those interested in getting involved in the sport. If you're looking for feedback on your current setup before you make any serious changes feel free to come out to one the events that I'm at and I'd gladly give you my Professional opinion.

 

Trying to get a little more seat time, eh?

Either way, this is a good offer. when you're starting off, you want to have either stock as a baseline to know what you're doing is working, or atleast have a "confirmed good" baseline. Something that's easy to drive for someone who has some experience and can identify it's habits as something to be aware of.

Otherwise, may spend alot of time learning to compensate for something that's horribly wrong or out of wack to begin with.

it's like trying to learn math, but when you started learning, someone told you 2 was the first number in counting. All of your concepts from there on out will be flawed, and it will take you alot of time to unlearn.

And i'll make a similar offer for autocross... I may not be as "Professional" as Musashi up there, but nearly 9 years of autocrossing and 8 of them spent driving and tuning a GD chassis WRX has to be worth something, right?

 

I don't know that I could use anymore seat time at this point. I'll be heading out to Detriot next week for BMW training and will be stopping by the Autoshow. We have a driving school this Sat, then again next month. And I'll be back at BIR like +10 times this season and my big event this year will be Leguna Seca.

I'm as much of a professional as a monkey discovering a bananna for the very first time.

 

First, I commend mnsubaru for offering sound advice and not simply saying...moar boost yo!

Chong, Shane, etc very good, sound advice!

I won't offer up my advice on "mods," as that has already been covered. (don't forget seat time ) However, I can share my experience, as I took the complete opposite approach with my last car (Saabaru) as I am with my STi.

I started all wrong with the saabaru (for racing anyway. I enjoyed the aesthetics, DD'ing, etc) and added poor lowering springs, more power, etc in the beginning. Eventually I changed the mods and it handled significantly better, but it was a rough start. One notable piece of experience, was that I started on crappy all seasons (those Continental DWS you speak of). Although they were less than ideal, I learned a ton about the car's limits, control, etc before I added more grip. I would say it was a great learning experience.

So as others have mentioned seat time (and good instruction) is a great start. Then once you can handle the car in current form, pinpoint the problem areas and correct.

Hope to see you at the track!

 

What's an ascetic?

 

whoops, fixed

 

Thanks everyone. With all the advice I'm thinking new tires for sure (deciding between extreme perf tires and some compromise is tough. I might have to drive in the rain on the street, maybe even long distances. For clarity, the ones I looked at were the less common Conti DW not DWS. Still, point taken). With those, considering new wheels at the same time. Brake lines, fluid and pads probably next in line, after some more time on the track. I'll hold off on other mods until I get even more seat time, like next year, then maybe struts/springs if I even need to. I agree that skill is the goal here.

Is there an easy, reliable way to check what wider wheels and tires would fit the car (e.g. 17x8), have the same net diameter, with no rub and stock alignment? (noob question, I know, that's why I'm asking for help . Lastly if I have two sets of wheels is there any alignment issue changing them out? Different widths or offset? Just four wheels in the trunk/garage and a torque wrench?

A second car would be awesome but is out of the question. Last year there was a short time we had a boat, motorcycle, four cars (Miata, LGT, Passat Wagon (shudder) and CX-9). Sold four of those six items with great pain . The LGT replaced the Miata (kids) and the CX-9 replaced the Passat (Passat SUCKED.) I don't mean to show off at all, mostly making the point that that many machines are not a fit for our lifestyle at all.

 

TMF, 'Moar Boost Yo' will be my new motto. LMAO.

 

Now I imagine a set of Hankook RS-3 245/40 R17's and four 17 x 8 wheels TBD in my future...

 

The most recent tire I got to test was the Goodyear Eagle F1 All Season tires at Mid-Ohio on a pair of 2012 BMW 335i. We got to do multiple laps around their technical autox course because it was cold and hardly anyone came out for the opportunity. I tossed everything I could at it. Launched the car, drifted the car, stumped on the brakes, steered with the throttle and the tires held up very well, no chunking, no feathering, wears evenly and the grip was phominal. The grip was very consistent considering the cold Sept windy weather in Ohio.

Every year Michelin has been a major tire sponsor at our National events and we get to test out their new product lines like the Pilot Super Sports and Cup. This was the first year Goodyear has been at our event. For an All Season tire I was pleasantly surprised, I didn't belive you could have this level of grip from this type of tire until after our testing.

As far as tire size goes a rim width of 8" offers a very good selection. What you may want to consider is if you go with a lower grade to compensate the many different conditions you'll be using it on then go wider because it will be cheaper anyway and the added width will make up for the lack of grip and heat dissipation like a 245. Now if you are looking to go up in grade a tire that offers more grip, good rolling transions and stiffer sidewalls then you can get away with 225 and up. The reason is you'll benefit more from a tire with the right size once it's heated up to operational temps and allow you to rotate the car better then an over size tire that you could not get up to temp.

Lastly I do attend a lot of track events and I do have a track and fun car. But I don't drive nearly as much as many people would think, as compared to before. Yes it is a very expensive sport but that's not the only reason why. Here's what I've found, when you're new everyone tells you to get as much seat time as possible, good advise, but it's no good if you have no idea what you're suppose to be working on. So you end up doing the same thing over and over hoping for a different result. Ok fine if that's your M.O. To me seat time means getting with a structured program, have an agenda, have some goals in place for the day and work with people who can get you closer to your objective. I don't drive as much anymore because I don't agree with the repetitive routine of just driving around the track lap after lap. Unless I have an agenda like testing a setup or I'm working with my peers I simply just coach. Why you may ask, it's because you can get into a lot of trouble when your not focused on the track.

 

Goodyear Eagle F1 All Seasons. Noted . Rave reviews on those bad boys.

 

RS3's are a very sticky tire, love heat...and a very low tread rating (and are most likely noisy on the highway). Unless you are planning on using these for track only, you may want to steer towards something different - like the Eagle F1's.

 

I've said it before, I'll say it again. If you can get your hands on the Federal 595RS-R you will not be disappointed. I put 2 full autocross seasons on a set and I plan on running them as my every day tire this summer. If you are looking at a tire that will do a few track days, and be a good every day summer only tire, these are hard to beat. I will be picking up another set for this season without any reservations. I actually like the Federal better that I like my Star Specs. At around $100.00 each, not a bad deal.
Great advice in this thread, I also hope to get to one of the DCTC sessions. Autocross is a good, inexpensive way to get a fell for you car. Not high speed, but it will really give you a feel of the handling. Instructors are the best way to go. I get a little better whenever I take one with me on a run. (instructors are available for every run during an autocross if you choose )

 

OK, I do need tires anyway, so it's a matter of selection. Right now I'm looking at a set of Enkei Falcons @ 17 x 8 and a set of 245/40 R17 tires from tirerack "Max Perf Summer" category. The Hankooks and Federals and such are sexy but I can't justify treadwear below 250 - they just wouldn't last long enough for my wallet to enjoy the experience. The ones I am looking at are like Conti ExtremeContact DW (complaints of sidewall softness noted), Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric, Potenza S-04 Pole Position, etc. category. What I would like to do is have these as everyday summer tires on the new wheels, and later put snows on my stock wheels. Anyone else have light-duty track/lap day experience with this category? Recommendations?