ok guys i havent even got the motor together and the car running yet but im already thinking about the next wave of stuff. toys, i tell you they are like a disease lol. ok so im looking at the best result that are somewhat affordable, and the fun to build. so here is my what im looking at. 400-450whp on 91 octane with 70/30 water meth. i want fast spoolup but really want the care to be a midrange monster (3-6000 rpms). im not looking for the fastest car around, im building the funnest one to drive. turbo gas is little new to me. i used to diesels (been doing diesel performance on the side for 5 years), which basically is fuel and air and thats about it. there is no running to lean basically and you can throw a ton of boost at it (i used to run 60 PSI all day long in duramax with compound setups. some of my ideas here come from that, tell me if they are bad or not. o to note, i do metal fab and welding basically all everyday so that is not and issue, aswell as i have ever tool i will ever need in the shop or at my dad's shop. First the easiest ones are atp stock location gtx3071 or 3076 with external gates. they are simple, easy and not horrible expensive. now to the other ideas. first i was possible thinking a a efr 7064 t3 stock location. with 8mm phenolic spacers that i have already, i can fit the 3.5 inlet, only question is the firewall cleanence for the downpipe. second is a 7064 or 7670 on a t3 on a rotated. this is pretty easy, not really worried lastly im talking twin scroll t4 7064 or 7670. i already have 4 to 2 to 1 heads so i can cut and vband off of them to build my up pipes. this is going to be the highest cost but is it worth the performance gain. also on top of that i was thinking of possible adding a turbine divider to further increase spool. this is much different then a quick spool vavle which is if you as me restrictive and a bad design. here is a link to the bd diesel one which works very very well. http://www.dieselperformance.com/ind...uct/index/202P let me know what you guys think. this is on a fully built 2.5 sti motor with ported heads but stock cams. also right now i got a big tmic but can switch to a front and fab that piping to if need but dont really want to spend the extra money if i dont have to. and to make a few of you guys laugh i was thinking aobut building a compound turbo setup but from the sounds of it, it would be very very very hard to tune.
Are you set on stock location turbo? Why? What kind of failsafes are you planning to run with the water/meth and how do you plan to control it? Although the water/meth will cool the intake charge some and there are tmics that can support that power level, in real world driving (heat soak) fmic is a better choice imo. What transmission do you have? Also, wth does "somewhat affordable" mean? What's your budget?
no as i said in there fabbing is not a problem. stock location is just less work and downtime. its a aem water/meth, it has a variable controller. i am getting it tuned with and without water meth. as for the heat soak, i am doing all i can to prevent that with heatwrap and custom heat shields but i know i may have to switch. as for trans its a 6mt. car is a 04 sti. http://www.mnsubaru.com/threads/new-guy-from-st-cloud.37878/#post-631518
Again, what's your budget? Goals (beyond an arbitrary power number)? In that case consider rotated, fmic, 30r-ish size. Stock location turbo housing choices (size-wise) are a lot better now then they were a few years ago, but maintenance and changes to your system can be a lot easier with a rotated system, space is less of an issue, and if you go with a larger than standard size inlet, you won't have to fight a silicone adapter wedged under your intake manifold. Twin scroll is fine but a lot more work like you mentioned. Consider different fuel like Jason mentioned. No matter what you do (coating, wrapping, thermal dispersant, etc...) you will still heat soak after a couple hard pulls with a tmic and larger turbo. The ecu will pull timing and you'll be pissed at the lower performance. Talk to the folks here who have run anything bigger than a 20g with a tmic and raced/driven their car hard. For a daily driven car, you have a lot safer alternatives to water/meth. I like water/meth setups for drag racing if you need to cool the charge beyond what your intercooler and fuel is providing, but monitoring it on a daily basis seems like more trouble than it's worth. If you do go this route, make sure you consider all your failsafe options... fluid level detector, pressure switch, flow switch, power loss relay... as well as all the standard monitoring tools... afr, knock detection, egt, iat, etc... Having seen a couple water/meth systems fail (despite having the off the shelf failsafes installed), personally I'd never run it on a dd especially considering the alternatives. If you get a chance to ride in similarly set up cars (there are several on this forum) definitely do. Again, in my experience I personally feel like there's a point of diminishing returns with a high power 6mt setup thanks to the super short gearing. Your goal should be alright, but if you ever plan to go bigger (you will, it's a disease), consider revised gearing as well. Good luck and have fun! These kinds of builds are always a pleasure, just save yourself some trouble down the road and build a system you can grow with.
well as for E85, i dont really want to run it. alot of places i got (northern minnesota, north dakota, montana) e85 can be hard to find. as for the water meth, it isnt in the car yet. do people really have that many problems with water meth. so im a diesel guy like it says in the post and running water meth in a diesel is super easy. no changes in tuning, its just a power add and lower egt's. i have never had a fail problem running it in lots of rigs with the systems being in for 100k+ miles. i dont have to install it, i can put it on my dad's duramax instead if its not worth it. really i only planned on running it on my high performance tune. i will be getting 3 tunes built for it. one for economy, a high no water meth tune and a high water meth tune, or atleast that is what i planned on. as for budget, id like to stay under 3k which i dont think will be any problem. like i said fabbing is not a problem. here is a link, this is the diesel performance company i used to co-own. i got out last year becasue i didnt have enough time anymore becasue of my regular job (i worked 80+ hours a week for 8 months straight, not much time in the day left). ok back to the project. http://www.sdptwins.com/ has anyone ever thought about compounds on a sti? i think that would be fun to build, tuning though IDK. like i said im used to diesels, i do lots of tuning via EFI LIVE with duramaxes on the side still. as for goal of the car. IDK really. i would like to maybe do alittle autox and rallyx if i find time but dont know it i will. ill probably end up selling this in a year and a half to two years and starting my other project which is a gtm twin turbo build. like i said guys, i new to the subies and the tuning aspect on these is what is my biggest thing that holds be back on building stuff for it. right now i got everything on the list there and im going to get it tuned and just drive it for a while. i got to put a bunch of money into the pickup again here so this stuff probably wont happen until fall.
You need failsafes for water/meth on a gasoline turbo engine because it is less tolerant of knock. You have to be tuned for it to be of any benefit. Just shooting it into the engine isn't going to do any good, in fact, without tuning, it'll likely rob you of power instead. And once you are tuned to run it and have it be useful in adding power, then you run the risk of grenading your motor if you ever don't have it. Because it raises the point of detonation, if it isn't present, you will pre-detonate....and hard. And there are so many failure variables with that system, that I wouldn't want anything to do with it. It's more trouble than it is worth for daily driving. You will always have to be mindful of monitoring the water/meth fluid level, which will require a gauge in the car, as you likely wont want to open up the trunk every 20 miles to see if you have water/meth left. You will need some way to step down timing/switch ECU maps IMMEDIATELY if the water isn't flowing, and a system of sensors to trigger that event. Fluid level and flow. If there is ever a clog, you're boned. You wont know till the engine starts ticking that the water wasn't getting to the intake manifold. And water around here can be hard, so it wont take long before the nozzles are clogged, but you should be using distilled water anyway...and do you really want to keep gallons of water in your car?. There are just too many ways a water meth system can fail for it to be good for daily driving. You really wont have any fun if you have to constantly monitor it. And you will hate yourself when it clogs and kills something. If you can fabricate your own turbo kit, you would be best served by a rotated turbo placement. Like idget said, it makes intake piping easier (because seriously, do you really want a GT30R with a tiny inlet?). Hell, on mine, I just found an air filter with a 4" diameter and hose-clamped it right to the turbo. And go with an FMIC. With the turbo location rotated, you can run your piping alot shorter. I wish I had pictures of how mine is run, but there was alot of piping left over when I was done hacking up FMIC piping that was intended for a stock location turbo.
If you haven't noticed, everyone is telling you the same thing: Rotated Turbo, FMIC, and E85 These are obvious choices especially considering your fabrication ability. The only missing piece at that point is a good tune (this is critical).
ok guys so what im getting here is dont run water meth lol. thats fine i can put it in one of the other diesels around here. what do you guys see for mileage with E85. like i said E85 cam be a problem for me sometime as i often am in the middle of no where in north dakota (i can always drive the pickup though). this car is basically just a play toy and maybe get alittle more miles to the dollar compaired to the pickup as diesel for some stupid reason has be in many places almost a dollar more than 87. so then will i be able to run 91 and e85 if needed with a 2 tunes. i know youd have to basically run the tank dry to switch back to E85 after running 91 but thats ok. if i go E85 id do it now so then was size injectors would it take to run a 450whp max setup but be able to run the VF39 right now still fine (1200?). as for the intercooler, right now i have the big TMIC which ill run with the stock turbo. when i build everything ill then switch to a front mount with rotated manifold and a blow thru MAF. like i said before, fabbing in not a problem, between my equipment, my dad's, and works, i can pretty much build anything i could ever imagine. ya biggest thing is i dont want to blow the motor up after spending all the money to build it and the time. i want this to be a fun car that i dont have to worry about popping ever time i drive it.
1200cc injectors would be fine. on e85 with stock vf39 you prob will see around 350 350 just a guess with 1200cc injectors. 1200cc injectors should be big enough to hit your target with a larger turbo.
I'm making right around 400 awhp with a rotated gt3076r & .82 hotside. Modified stock (816-ish cc) injectors and an AFO fuel pump. Yes I need more injector, so I'm thinking 1k - 1.2k cc parts will be my next investment. Go with e85 and you'll be glad you did. Water/meth injection works well, but it also seems like it may be a hassle. A vf39 won't get you into the power range you are looking for.
well i just talked to the my tuner and just ordered some 1200cc injectors. ya i know the VF39 wont get me there. if you read in the first post its going to get some more stuff. i just want to get it together right now and drive it some and build up some more funds. ive got 15k cash into it this year already (that was with buying the car too though). im looking at options more for a larger setup and how big i want to go and how much i want to spend. my though right now is a efr7064 twin sproll and add a front mount. thinking that wont be until fall though or next winter. thanks for the help guys, its much appreciated.
I am running about 400awhp with 1100cc injectors, e85, and a stock location map 20g. No need for water/meth. E85 is where it's at. IMO
Just remember that the e85 subsidy is getting pulled this spring so that us taxpayers are no longer chipping in to pay for your gas. It's possible that the cost may skyrocket a bit on you guys. I'd hate to pay $4-5/gallon if it was me...that's just me tho. Not to mention the damage that is does to fuel lines. I like your meth injection idea...or maybe just get a tune for pump gas and another for race gas?? Not 100% sure that you'll be paying that kind of $/gallon for e85, just saying that you might! Link-http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2011/12/23-1
They are talking about 38¢ a gallon not 2$. No matter what happens I like hp and am willing to pay a little more for it.
I hear ya! I re-read the article and saw that it would be more like 35-40 cents per gallon. That isn't too unreasonable for you e85 guys! If i liked horsepower that much, i'd buy a Mitsu. And just an fyi Freddy, stock internals aren't too reliable in the 2.0-2.5 blocks. Aftermarket internals would be something you should consider if you plan on dropping big numbers. I wouldn't shoot for much over 300whp if you would like it to be reliable. As far as rally-x goes, you need alot less hp, alot more torque. The NA guys usually do better than most of the turbo'd cars out there.
well in all honesty you can always switch back you know but ya i think it will probable be just a tad more then regualr and still less then premium. like i said before i like water/meth and i have put in on and ran it on my own diesels for a long time with no problems. i run blue windshield washer fluid 99% of the time which is basically 70/30. the purple stuff is 60/40. as for right now ill try E85 sense i just bought injectors now. if i have to switch later, i guess i will. and really water meth kits are pretty cheap. i paid 325 for my last AEM one. takes about 4 hours to wire one in and your ready to rock and roll.
o its a fully built motor. manley pistons (8.5:1 compression 99.5mm) eagle H beam rods acl race bearings APR headstuds port and polished heads (stock size valves) TGV delete port and polished intake manifold port and polished stock turbo equal length heads and up pipe amr turbo inlet stock size maf CAI intake with S&B filter with prefilter and a bypass filter large TMIC forge BOV AEM water/meth injection Deatchwerks 300lhp fuel pump HKS bellmouth catless downpipe mangaflow catback exhaust grimmspeed boost soleniod grimmspeed 8mm phenolic spacers IGK iridium plugs (1 step colder) clutchmaster fx400 eibach 25mm swaybars front and back hotchkis end links perrin stout rear mounts V lip
Atta boy!As far as rally-x goes, you need alot less hp, alot more torque. The NA guys usually do better than most of the turbo'd cars out there.
where is there rallyx around here. production car racing is new to me to. my old roommate and i have raced just about everything else though, sleds (former polaris semi pro XC racer), dirtbikes, carts, dirt track B mods, ice oval sleds, snox, working on ice oval dirt bike, etc. its all alot of fun, just expensive.
Starting in March you should start to see the thread in the Event Section for rally-x. It is sponsored by the Land Of Lakes region of the SCCA. I've been rally-xing for the past 4 years, with the exception of last year when the car was submerged in water. She's back in action now tho and finally going back on the rollers tomorrow for the final tune. So hopefully i'll be getting her dirty again this coming spring!
so car was submerged? i mean ive sunk a sled water skipping but a car is a new one lol. ya man ill have to look it up. i know there is rally races in park rapids and bemidji every year (the car is in nevis right next to park rapids right now which is where my parents ranch and dad's shop is at) so i may do those to. idk right now really i just want to get it done and play around with it some.
Yessir, storm main broke and by 6am the water had come up 17 feet or so. I always thought that if it was going to be under water that it would be from ice racing and hitting thin ice.lol
