I saw this on NASIOC and Facebook. I thought I would share .... I would like to keep my gas prices down. About the new E85 Taxes Super Easy Link to send a letter Very quick to do. Have to supply your email address, address and phone number.
I love how they spin it as an extra tax when it's the government cutting their incentives. All those subsidies should be cut.
+1 OP, your e85 prices at the pump are low only because taxpayers are footing the bill. Sorry, not signing. Not trying to start a political discussion here, BTW.
Without a subsidy to get it started, e85 would not exist... So the question is, is it worth the initial incentive to get it started, to spur the capital investment needed to produce, transport, & dispense e85? Are we there yet? Will a few more years' extension do it? I'm in for a few more years, maybe a incentive step-down plan instead of cold turkey?
I could care less about the politics behind it. It's cheap, it's safer for my engine, its cleaner than gas and most importantly makes my car faster.
It also consumes farmland that is used to grow food. And it increases food costs due to lowered supply. The amount of land required to produce one gallon of E85 can feed around 7 humans for a year. Demand for food will continue to increase as world population continues to increase. Supply goes down, demand remains the same or increases....bam, higher food costs. The only way corn based ethanol is sustainable is if they start using non-food parts of corn and other ethanol producing crop yield. Add on top of that that it costs more energy per gallon to MAKE e85 than it produces. I forget what the figures are, but it is more than 125% energy input to energy yield IIRC, which means it is NOT better for the environment. Sure it burns cleaner than gas, but if 1.25 gallons of gas have to be burned to bring that 1 gallon of gas to market, then you are still burning alot of gasoline. Add on top of that that your tax dollars go into making e85 cheaper. Yeah, not signing it. E85 is a farmer's dream, but as far as environment, taxes and world food stock is concerned, it's bad.
Hey man I agree corn for E85 is stupid. There are better options ..... but .... I really don't care. I have 2 options. 93 or E85.... I'll choose the cheaper and faster option. Because I can. Lots of $hit is F'd in this world. There are bigger problems than E85.
The things that E85 "F's" are things that affect everyone. Rising food costs, we're not talking about corn on the cob here, corn is used in like 50% of the foods you buy at the grocery store. I find it disturbing that 200 dollars in food can't feed 2 people for an entire month like it could 6 years ago. Cheap high octane gas with lower efficiency and its availability is the VERY least of my concerns.
It's one thing to say it contributes to high food costs. It's another to say it would actually make a large enough impact to bring prices down. Food prices are way more complex than E85. Not that we could ever prove this.... but I would put my money on the following. If E85 went away there would be little to no drop in food price. Now if gas as a whole dropped a few dollars a gallon... then we would start to notice a difference. We both know that neither will happen. Also there is no point in debating something that isn't going to happen.... and I really don't care about because there is no way that my "feelings" about it will make a difference in the outcome of the situation. This is up to the government and the wealthy and wicked.
Agreed. I am in favor of ending all subsidies along with lowering the taxes that pay for them. Think about it for a minute, most things you buy are subsidized in one way or another, and the subsidies are being paid for by the government, which get's it money from you through taxes. The money spent on administering those programs is wasted, and the waste is huge. Subsidies are social engineering endorsed by politicians. The problem is even after the reason for the subsidy is gone, the subsidy itself almost always continues. Don't get me wrong, I love E85 for my autoX car and wish it were more readily available. If the station I go to for it now shuts off that pump I'll have to buy 55 gallon drums at greatly increased price. I will still buy it, but I'll be glad that everyone else who doesn't use E85 isn't paying for my use of it through taxes. Sorry, end rant.
Did you know tobacco is still subsidized and I think is until 2015. Ethanol is one of the few subsidized products that you see the subsidy reflected in the consumer price. They are just collecting less of the normal Fed tax you would pay on the gasoline (or E10 as mandated by the Feds.) Want to debate MTBE? Want to debate Alberta oil sands and the refining cost to the environment? They are trying to generate a market for ethanol so that the research will follow creating a technology that catches up. Is corn the right fuel? Hell I'm not sure it is for animals and humans. It is closer to the hydrogen based fuel system we need. I haven't seen the natural gas pump at Holiday yet but I do hold out hope. US corn ethanol producers are protected from cheaper imported ethanol by a 54 cent per gallon tariff. Perhaps we should get all up in arms about that.
There is NO way I'm signing anything to keep that going. I say cut the subsidies off completely and let the free market decide if it's a valuable product at it's real market price. Only then if it survives can we say it's a (quote from the site) " true alternative to imported oil". I would highly disagree with that statement for all the reasons put forth earlier in this thread. I'd love to know just how many of my tax dollars per gallon I'm paying to also pay more for food in the grocery store....sounds pretty awesome to me. -Steve
Economics 101. Is it more complex? Probably a little. But the basic rules hold true. Supply goes up with a decrease in demand, price goes down. If you aren't pissing away food resources on fuel, then you have more food stock available in the market, if demand remains the same, and supplies go up, the price will go down. Demand will decrease because there isn't a fuel industry demanding corn to make fuel. Gasoline (OIL) is a fixed market and its price is set by speculators (which I agree, means that the price of fuel wont change). But food is demand based. Especially agricultural base foods like corn.
Stop eating meat if you are worked up about corn prices. I have hopes for this - http://gas2.org/2011/12/16/mascoma-...anol-plant-deal-with-doe-in-kinross-michigan/
Not trying to argue or choose sides here. When I worked at in the grocery industry for over 5 years I watched food skyrocket once E85 debuted/became popular by roughly 10-15% and in some cases 20-25%. It has played a huge difference in the price of food which I am against as I would much rather eat then have a fast car. Nearly all food products are affected by the price of corn. Soda/pop is a great example of staggering price increases.
Yeah, no kidding, A 12 pack of Dr. Pepper used to run about 2.25-2.50. Lately I haven't seen a 12'er of it for under 3.50.
I guess corn plays a roll in just about every thing... It made concrete jump in price also...wait that was due to the fuel shortage... they haven't dropped the sur charges on that... Like Newton didn’t say what goes up very rarely comes down. Inflation is inflation... Taxes are Taxes, don't like them move... I hear 75% of the countries in Africa don't have taxes... sounds nice, we should move there... Taxes go up for many reasons... People want an annual raise do they not??? City's pay for electricity... people work for the power company... THEREFORE taxes go up because city pays more for power, which costs the company more to produce because it employee's get paid more. FAR LEFT= no one works for a living... everything goes to poo FAR RIGHT = one rich person & many poor people… everything goes to poo MEET IN THE MIDDLE= Never… people always fighting… everything goes to poo #1 solution Bigger A-BOMB
Yeah, i seem to remember something else going up around this time..... what was it.... oh yeah GAS! Gas went up a few dollars per gallon..... but it was ONLY the corn that jacked up the food cost. It couldn't have been gas going from $1.50 - $5.00/gallon. Look I really don't care, I try and stay out of stuff I don't have a say in... like taxes. However, to say that corn caused everything in the world to go up is a big statement. When GAS or OIL made a much larger footprint in the prices you are talking about. Like I said in the beginning. There is way more to your price jump than corn (regardless of what the NEWS/TV told you.)
Well yeah, I agree with that. I'm just stating for food purposes E85 did make a difference. Just not necessarily a good one. Regardless of how big it was.
You realize that by signing the petition you are invalidating the above statement? You do have a say. It's called a vote. Or in this case, a signature.
I will enjoy it while it is around. To say your human instincts don't drive you to do the same thing everyday is a lie. You're a good person, you mean well. But your statement applies to me, you and everyone else who commented in this thread. We both agree corn isn't the best opinion ... but it allows us options other than just gas.... and hell it's a ton of fun. I see your point. I was trying to say it in a larger picture sort of way. I cannot get them to use a better product than corn, so I'll support the non-gas option. Trust me I am all about better options than corn. I just don't want to see us go back to only gas. Corn opens the door to better options, only gas does not.
Our ability to resist giving in to our instincts is what separates us from animals. We possess the intellect to realize that, sometimes, acting out of instinct is not the right thing to do. It helps us to act not solely for ourselves, but for the good of our neighbor as well. Corn alcohol CLOSES doors for other alternative fuels. It's dirt cheap because of subsidies. This make it very difficult to compete economically with other sources of combustible fuels that do not receive these subsidies. This maintains the status quo of corn having the alcohol-as-fuel monopoly. Why? Pure politics. Corn is not terribly healthy for us to eat and not an energy efficient or environmentally responsible fuel source. Thank the lobbyists for the status it has. And, before anybody says it, no we should not subsidize other fuels. Corn subsidies should end. Both as food and as fuel, it should compete on merit. If that happens, it will be lacking for both purposes.
It's one thing to say what you are. It's another to do something about it. Guess who isn't going to change the world ... this guy. Are you? It hardly closes the door. More options = less of a lock down gas has. More drive for more options. But hey both of us are just guessing what might happen. I agree the world could be better. What did you do today to change it? I am going to continue to be a good person and not waste life talking about stuff that I am not going to change. Preach all you want, I know the little to no impact that is being made. So I'll keep drive corn while I can enjoy it.
Sigh. Keep up the defeatist cynical self-serving attitude, friend, and we'll never improve anything. Honestly, you have as much power as I do and anybody else with a vote. Don't discount that. Yeah, your part may feel insignificant, but you have a say, regardless of how you feel. Your creating this thread proves that, regardless of your intentions. And, no, as long as competition is skewed by political forces, competitors are hosed. That's the problem. Any other options will have a terrible time trying to get a foothold. The corn lobby is more powerful that you're giving them credit for. As long as corn subsidies continue, any competition is sisyphean.
Hey prove me wrong. I am all for it. Make a better option than corn. I'll support you. Until then I'll be at the E85 pump.
"I'm a good person, and I can't change the situation with corn. Because my vote doesn't count. Which is why I'm urging all of you to vote against changing the situation with corn. Because, hey, screw it, I'm having lots of fun driving around in my car on corn gas. And as long as I'm having a good time, I can continue failing to grasp the idea that there is a bigger picture. Because, much like the rest of the entitlement generation, I don't give a **** about anyone as long as I get mine. But don't let that sway your opinion of me. I'm a good person. And I'll be sure to repeat that ad-nauseum, while at the same time reminding you that I don't care about long term food shortages or food costs that affect everyone, because I'm having so much fun with my car on E85."
And if E85 went away all of the worlds problems would be solved! Trust me i know, I make huge changes for the world everyday. Just look at how I spend my time everyday... helping the world. So lets hate on people that support alternative fuels. Pump gas and diesel will save the world. Alternative options are dumb, like the people that support them because they aren't the best option. You stupid people, you could be supporting other options that are better but don't exist. I am not going to put an ounce of effort into making them exist either, but I will hate on you for doing the same. How dare you sign something the opens the door for other options. Only support what I think is best. I know my ideas can't be purchased at the local gas station. I know the most effort I will put into my idea is in this tread. However I will use it as a tool to show you I am better than you. I know you acknowledge there are better options and would support them... but you are a retarded to believe that additional options could open the door to change. All changes in the world require the best option first so we never need to make improvements. If you sign this you are stupid because what you believe could leave to change is wrong (because I don't believe that). Did I get that right?
No, not really. But you haven't really demonstrated much in the realm of critical thinking or reading comprehension thus far, so I wasn't expecting much. Correct. I don't make fuel, nor do I have any other alternatives. But that doesn't mean I'm going to sign my name to a petition to keep a very non viable and unsustainable fuel that, at its best, has a net energy loss, at the cost of higher food prices and requires my tax dollars to stay afloat. Is ridding the world of e85 going to fix everything that's wrong with the world? If you think it would, you're brutally stupid. But getting rid of it would correct the rising food costs. And it would unburden the population with the tax subsidy. What I find most amusing, is how you marginalize the naysayer contributions to this discussion as being pointless, yet YOUR only contribution to e85 is signing a petition to keep it around. And your justification so far for keeping it is "i like cheap fun gas." And then you go all martyr on us for pointing it out. I wont get you any tissues for your tears. You seriously think I brought up my opinion on e85 to bash YOU? All I've heard out of your opinions so far echos like a girl's choir, "me me me me me me meeeeeeeee." You don't care that E85 affects food costs and has a net energy loss meaning it requires the burning of MORE fuel to bring to market at a cost to the environment, not to mention the impact of soil degradation because those sweet sweet tax fueled subsidies have farmers planting corn year after year for sure-fire profits, even though it is detrimental to the viability of that soil to grow crops in the long term. No, your justification so far has been "I don't care about all that, because it's probably nothing. As long as I get to have fun time happy rainbow gas in my car, I'm signing it." And when called on it, you take it personal and get all butthurt. Why not just come out and say what you really mean: "I don't care as long as I get mine." Are you afraid that you will get martyr'd by people for that position? That's really the only explaination I can come up with. You're simply afraid of being labeled an entitled doucher. If you can give me one good reason why we, as a species, should get behind an alternative fuel that, while cheaper at the pump per gallon, makes up for its cost with increased food costs, and rapid soil degradation, and to maintain that cheap price has to be propped up by taxpayer funded subsidies, and will require all those things to continue to happen into the foreseeable future....then sure, I'll think about signing it. In my opinion, we should be working on a different alternative fuel that doesn't require us to use food sources, destroy viable food producing land, cost more energy per gallon to produce than it creates, and require our tax dollars to keep it profitable to those that produce it. If they come up with a fuel that doesn't do those things, or even does fewer of those things, and seems to be headed towards innovation, I'll gladly sign to keep the subsidies around. E85 doesn't appear to be going anywhere, as farmers are getting their paychecks for all that corn. There's no real incentive to come up with an alternative to E85 as long as farmers are getting paid to grow fuel corn.
NO NO NO it's about all the money they take from us... We hate people who want street lights, police, fireman, paved roads, plowed roads, and the list goes on and on and on…. But mostly we hate people that support any other (GOVERNMENT) service that helps underprivileged people or furthers innovation. We should be able to keep our money and choose what people we want to get it. For instance that little boy needs a toy… here you go… twenty dollar out of my pocket no problem… but wait he needs a warm place to live this winter? $500 dollar per month X 12 months = $6000… F-that his dead beat parent/s can figure out how to provide that… We all know that the government will do this but they already take so much from us so we don’t want to support them either… F-it let them suffer. Oh and the F-ing government gives all our money to the Universities. We wish they quit paying for Sh*t that hasn’t been developed… and what do we need Sh*t developed for anyway… humans have been on this plant for the past 70,000 years… We’re pretty sure they have everything figured out already. And all that research they do on our dime is pointless… I gave my $25 to cancer research this year… I know that is plenty to find a cure to over 1000 diseases that are categorized as ONE… The less we spend now on finding a cure means the more future generations will spend treating the disease. Oh well more money for me now. Not sure who is self serving one in this situation… the person who wants to keep all there money and does not support the betterment of society or the person who wants to pays their taxes so the society lives better collectively as a whole??? FYI: I know you all read this and think that I am a far left supporter but that not the case… I am a middle of the road guy… but I don’t want to live in Africa (see my previous post above)… I do wish we could all just get along… That is the world’s biggest problem and the only short term solution to it is to Kill them all until one is left… then there is no one to fight with… no one to suck a bunch of resources… and no one to take your money If the world doesn’t figure out how to think/work collectively as a whole… it not going to matter any how… we should just build the biggest A-bomb and implement the short term solution.
