Maybe the title should be changed to show a more, lets say sorting out the facts style name... scammer to me is making a statement that someone is a scammer before the facts are laid out and dealt through... after looking through Musashi's thread... and I am no trying to back Josh by any means as I have NEVER purchased anything through him, although I have swapped a few emails a while back... maybe buyer/seller disputes or something... something a little less aggressive... 0.02
I was too lazy to search.. I knew someone had made that suggestion.. but it was also right as it was being done so I am sure the sensitivity level to criticism was higher then normal if possible but seeing it in action it seems to be more accusing then problem solving at first glance
I definitly agree.... accusations do nothing but reciprocate more accusations. I think if the thread had less of a negative/aggressive title, more may come from it.
Because then we'd be inundated with people who are there to praise the marketers. That forum isn't supposed to be for that. Personally, I would have called it something like "Member/Vendor Sales Issues"
i honestly dont understand this either. Most other forums have a vendor review forum and its works fine. i dont see the need for an additional "scammer" forum. and agree..'scammer' forum, horrible name. Justin
Well, I don't have a problem changing the title of the forum, but it needs to be clear that issues aired in it are not arbitration. Publically calling someone a scammer (or similar) is a serious thing, and it needs to be treated as such. That subforum was not designed as a vendor review, period. It was designed as a scammer forum for those who have been scammed. IMHO, that forum should not be used unless every single other option has been exhausted and you still are out money or payment for a transaction. I know Russ has been working on a vbulletin vender review system, but obviously that is not active yet.
^Every option besides legal?? I think if you put a disclaimer or description in the thread page, people will abide by the rules.
I think so far it is working, and people are staying out of it bar the first one that Jack started originally.. but once the issues were publicly discussed about what was acceptable etc, it has been ok.. people have stayed out of them... the title just seems straight up accusing... both cases things seemed to have more to it then the original accusation whether right or wrong... I trust the mods etc will get this worked out...
Yes. i Talked about this last night with Nate, or someone cant remember anyway. i agree scammer is to accusing. scammer forums should only be for national forums like nasioc where everyone is from different states and even countries. but honestly who is gonna scam someone on this forum. we all live within 5-6 hours from each other. i dont really think anyone is shaddy enough to do so. i agree with like the unresolved issues or something i dono... my .02 cents
Well, it doesn't matter how it sounds, if you do the right thing, your name will never be in there. So just do the right thing. Russ
Just call it what it is, the "Public flogging forum". As a business owner I can tell you that I would think twice before getting involved with this club provided this practice continues. Although we have been lucky to have great customers, S%^t happens with shippers and suppliers, as business owners we do our best to resolve the issues. I can tell you I went through hell with one customer on a rush order, at the end of the day it was UPS that was to blame although this was no comfort to the customer. To me "Scammer" is some sort of illegal activity, NOT what got post recently. Mike
Originally when the we decided to put the forum together we did not intend for it to be used for vendors, but for other members/individuals that were experiencing difficulties with a transaction. We'll look into this and come up with a solution.
I agree, and to be perfectly honest, I do not believe Mushashi's thread should be placed in that forum. As Dave stated, it was originally designed for actual scammers or suspected scamming between forum members (not vendors). Like I stated above, to be used when you have paid for something or not received it, or similar.
I also agree that the scammer forum should be used mostly for member to member issues of payment and no parts or service. However maybe we should have a Vendor review section, since there will be disputes with members and vendors. I don't think Musashi's thread belongs in the scammer thread. I do think however, that he had a legitimate complaint against the vendor and he should be able to voice that in a central place somewhere on this forum for other members to see what the business/service practices of the vendor are.
Have we considered prior moderator approval before anything gets posted to that forum? Like the "tech, tips, and newbie info" forum. That would give the moderator team some lead time to evaluate and research new thread requests as well as eliminate all the extra chatter from parties that aren't involved. Additionally, the rules to the scammer forum could be expanded to include language that outlines what constitutes a scam and include examples of what kinds of threads are considered acceptable. If so inclined, the mods/officers could even go so far as to offer up a supplemental document that could be stickied to the "Members FS/wtb/gb" forum that outlines general guidelines on how one can protect themselves from being scammed before and after money changes hands. Bottom line is, you can't make everyone happy, but the mod/admin/officers team is doing everything they can to move in that direction. MNSubaru has NO control over what goes on outside the forum, but feels it is obligated to protect its users. I think the moderator/admin team has done a fantastic job in going above and beyond what should be expected of them in terms of protecting and informing the users of this site. And yes, SubieDG, there are scammers on this forum. Just as there are law enforcement officers, long time lurkers, and perverts in clown pants.
Great post, Sheen. I really like the mod-approval idea for the forum. Additional language is a great idea, as well. And I completely agree, the mods and admins of this site have continually gone above and beyond what is reasonably expected.
All good ideas, I have no problem with a vendor review area as long as it is moderated properly. We must give the vendor an opportunity to respond. As a vendor I would have no problem working directly with my customer "Offline". Many times it is a customer issue at the time of the order usely due to lack of clarity or understanding on one or both sides. In some cases the customer isn't right and as a vendor you take it in the shorts to resolve the issue. If all terms of settlement are made public it sets precident making it harder for a vendor to take care of the situation. Believe it or not there are people out there just waiting to take advantage of unsuspecting vendors. Don't get me wrong if anyone knows of a scammer out there doing something illegal the Scammer forum is the best place for it. I fully support this disclosure. Sorry just my 2 cents worth, Mike
Good points to take in to consideration. Thanks Mike! I think a vendor review needs a separate discussion outside of the scope of this scammer forum discussion, but obviously it is related and something that would be useful to lots of members.
You are absolutely right. Vendors often get screwed because of the whole "the customer is always right" mentality. Most problems, as you can see in public vendor review forums, end up being a miscommunication, or the customer expecting too much. Keep in mind that MNSubaru (and MNSOC) consider vendors to be valuable members too. My only concern with a vendor review forum is that review threads very quickly become a bitchfest (as can be evidenced with a quick search). IMHO, the last thing we want is a nasioc-style he said/she said system where certain vendors are black balled because of one miscommunication, one group buy blowing up beyond their stock, or one bad batch of products from their distributors. I agree that a vendor review forum, in conjunction with a member buyer/seller rating system is another way to help protect our members. But as Nate said, it is an entirely different (although sometimes connected) conversation. At the end of the day tho, all the responsibility of making such a system work needs to be shouldered by the members and, like you said, guided by the moderators. IMHO, the users are going to have to read and follow rules. This has not yet proven to work :laugh:. Additionally, the moderators are going to need more help... they spend enough time cleaning up drama and diverting passive aggressive personal attacks.
yeah but the last one and also Jacks revised one stayed pretty well on topic WHEN everyone else stayed out of it.. I think this can be successful.. maybe just a Vendor review section?!?!?!? where positive or negative experiences get posted... if there is something that maybe flares up in that thread then it can get moved to a thread of its own in more the scammer/argument/fight/bitchfest thread
if it comes to the point where dealings need to end up in such a subforum, they probably deserve the strong language of scammer, it gives incentive to right the problem and save their reputation. with out penalty or chastising theres less reason to right the problem. (citing jack being ignored it had to come to this). we're all more or less anonymous online, and need some incentive such as this.
Well put!!! First of all considering that Nate is raising some concerns about this, has me concerned. After reading everything you've posted in many ways I agree. But you'll want to really work on creating more options for those of us who have been violated to voice our concerns, the worse thing that could happen is you have a repeat offender. I don't think I'm anyone special or an exception to the rule, but understand that I'm not one to make a stink out of just anything. I share the same interest and concerns as many of you do for this community. Its out of my character to lash out at anyone in the way I did. I felt that I've done everything possible on my end to resolve this issue prior to making it public. Everyone loses once its made public. I am very diplomatic when it comes to resolving issues, I much rather see a quick and fair settlement than to have to end a relationship. As always I'm open to any constructive critisim. I know that if I was on the receiving end of any bad situation I'd hope I am smart enough and brave enough to own up and resolve the matter quickly and not be igorant enough to neglect and deceive. I don't know but I hope you're not implying that I'm trying to take advantage of this Vendor. So when someone misleads you into thinking they are giving you a product at this price and than later charges your CC again for a different price without first informing you, is not illegal? I don't expect anyone to side with me on this, but I do know that I would do what is nessary so my friends would not have to endure what I went thru. This is one of my least proudest moments. So how do you expect to work with someone who does not want to work with you, especially when you are working wth someone as easy to talk to as me? I read the disclaimer and thought long and hard before putting my thoughts on the IE. Why create a section if you're not going to encourage members to utilize it. What benefit does it serve. Perhaps to tone was bit too abrupt for the community, I tried to keep it professional, factual and no profanity, thats not me. The forum/the club is obviously growing, new opportunities will be coming out of this and so will more issues. Address them as they come, you really can't foresee the future, and think that you can create something that will be the catch all. Perhaps if you're going to continue having this section, a mediator should get involved. It's easy for each party to be clouded in their own details. What's even more fustrating is just when you thought you had the issue resolved, and try to rebridge the relationship, make a simple request to amend what is been broken and they accuse you of having the info in the first place. Surely from my point of view this thread has failed as it took several attempts to get the same point across. I agree with Russ, I've made my own mistakes in the past as well, and the first thing you do is appoligize and appoligize again, than resolve it quickly. My thread should never of made it out there, but it did.
Commercial vendors warrant a separate forum/review system period. The scammer forum should be about private individuals conducting commerce. What about adding an intermediate page that a poster is brought to when they Submit a post to the "Scammer Forum". This page would state the rules and require the poster to affirmatively click that they acknowledge what the rules are and that their post complies with them. If they do this and the post doesn't comply, on any level, their posts are deleted and they are banned for XX days. Take out the gray area.
