Suspension Experience with 5th Gen LGT?

Discussion in 'The Welcome Mat' started by BernieK, Jun 23, 2014.

  1. BernieK
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    BernieK Member

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    Hi all,
    Any other 5th gen LGT owners out there who have done suspension modifications? I have Eibach Prokit Springs and Whiteline swaybars and they've been great but the stock struts need to go. I'm particularly interested in any experience on the Bilstein struts or KW v3 coilovers. This car is both daily driven and autocrossed so I'm looking for good all around struts or adjustable coilovers to support both ends of the spectrum.
    Thanks!
    Bernie, 2010 LGT
    E85 upgrade (1000cc ID injectors, DW300 fuel pump, Perrin Pro EBC, Mitsu Evo BPV) & RS Motors Tune
    Invidia turboback exhaust, Eibach Prokit Springs, Whiteline adjustable swaybars
    245/35 R19 Yoko AD08r on 19x8.5 Konig Torch Wheels
     
  2. Nhibbs
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    Nhibbs Well-Known Member

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  3. BernieK
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    BernieK Member

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    Thx!
     
  4. TMF
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    TMF Well-Known Member

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    Hey Bernie, glad to see you found the forum! Sorry I haven't had a chance to reply to you message on linked in yet...I don't go on there much.

    But yes, the V3's are a great coilover choice, but the ride will be pretty firm, especially with a higher spring rate. And I also wouldn't recommend running any coilovers during the winter. That would mean swapping back to stock and getting a new alignment at every season change.

    A good strut/spring combo can be a good compromise between good handling and nice ride comfort. Here are the Bilsteins that I was referring to, which also match nicely to RCE's springs:
    http://www.racecompengineering.com/...6r-fixed-perch-oem-fitment-sport-dampers.html

    Surly can comment on his experience with both the V3's and Bilsteins...
     
  5. BernieK
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    BernieK Member

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    Thanks! I should've joined this forum 2 years ago. So what happens to coil overs in the winter?

    Btw- I didn't miss you at the PAC/com on Sunday...I was able to grab a 1st place class finish with both my wet and dry runs :thumbup:
     
  6. TMF
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    TMF Well-Known Member

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    Oh nice work! You going to be at Eau Claire on Sunday? I just registered, only a few spots left.

    A few issues with coilovers in the winter... Ever at higher ride height settings, they are still pretty low clearance for snow. The salt/sand also raises hell with them and they won't last as long. And a stiff suspension is the last thing that you want for handling in the snow and ice.

    So unless you want to swap, a good strut spring combo is a great compromise between handling and convenience/comfort. Good coilovers provide the best handling, but you need pretty high spring rates and stiff dampening to really get the best performance. You can use bigger sway bars and get away with lower spring rates, but that can take a lot of experimentation to get the combo right, and it changes other driving characteristics as well (such as tire lift at mid corner).
     
  7. TMF
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    TMF Well-Known Member

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    Another point that I should add...you will also want as much negative camber and positive caster in the front that you can get. More positive caster will not affect tire wear, but anything more than about -1.5 degrees or -2.0 degrees of camber, and you will get some additional inner tire wear while DD'ing it.

    It is easy to get more camber/caster with coilovers, because there is a greater selection of camber plates available that work with coilovers.

    With a stock style strut/spring, there are still some options. The Whiteline Com C front top hat would be great for your application, but I am not certain if they make those for your car. Otherwise when you get your alignment, have Jeff (or whoever it is) get you the most negative front camber possible. With stock stuff, you can probably get about -1 to -1.5.
     
  8. BernieK
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    BernieK Member

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    Unfortunately, I won't be in Eau Claire on Sunday but I will be at the DCTC MAC practice event on July 19. Best of luck!
    Thanks for the info...I have a lot to learn still. I have a note out to Surly for his setup experience with the other two options for the lgt. So many pros and cons to consider. The eibach pro kit springs give me about .75" drop and are nicely progressive. The biggest pain right now is the light damping on the stock struts but the white line swaybars have helped. At the RS Motors lapping event at DCTC, the car handled exceptionally well with the higher speeds and smoother transitions but at autocross, it can seem a bit unsettled. It seems like another inch of drop and better spring rate/damping would really help. Any way to help coil overs survive the winters? How much does it cost to switch out struts and realign? I've had Jeff give me all the negative camber (-1.5) that I can get but he didn't mention any caster adjustment with the current setup.
     
  9. EricS
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    EricS Nooberator

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    I've never run coilovers myself, but I know that some people use coilbags/coilwraps to help out with this. You can often find them made for the offroad community, maybe there's a rally company that makes them for Subaru coilover applications? There are threads on the various forums on how to diy them, like this one: http://www.rs25.com/forums/f105/t146066-diy-coil-bags-protect-your-coilover-suspension.html . I'd probably try making them out of some sort of neoprene to give them flexibility though?
     
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  10. TMF
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    TMF Well-Known Member

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    Yep, as Eric mentioned, some people use a type of sleeve to cover and protect the coilover. I'm not sure how much you work on your own car, but swapping out fully assembled strut/springs is pretty easy...like two hours or less. For the alignments, just talk to Jeff. You're normally looking around $80 to $100 depending on the setup.

    And the only way to "adjust" caster is with camber plates and/or eccentric bushings in the control arms. The eccentric bushings that go in the lower control arm (its the rear bushing) are a nice upgrade, not just for increased caster, but it also helps to firm up the suspension and steering quite a bit.
     
  11. SurlyOldManMN
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    SurlyOldManMN Omdat fok jou Staff Member

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    TMF is going to be your guy for actually dialing in a setup. I'm a hamfisted "enthusiast" with a couple HPDE's under my belt. Keep that in mind when considering opinions...

    I'll walk through my setups:

    Stock: W.T.F.? Scary to drive at normal speeds around cloverleafs due to the excessive body roll. As in, were the civic or STi to roll that much, that means I'm about to make an unanticipated offroad excursion. But that's just how these settle in... Pitching and diving are the norm. Any sort of large bumps/dips kick off brown-trousers time.

    Stock + 19mm rear sway: Transformative. Ass-end considerably less inclined to jump around like a wildebeest on a pcp bender. Much more predictable. Much less body roll. Pitching and diving still an issue.

    Stock + Swift sport springs (http://www.mann-engineering.com/new...eleases-sport-springs-2010-legacy-25gt-sedans): Holy sheeeiiit... Finally had a chassis that was somewhat confidence inspiring! Mismatch between shocks and springs very noticeable. Still acted crazy under heavy sudden compression such as the bumps on eastbound 494 before the Wakota bridge. That said, MASSIVE improvement in handling characteristics across the board. So much so that I took a weekend off so I could run around the arrowhead and "break them in". Pitching and diving dramatically reduced. Highway wander mostly eliminated. Drop is more than advertised, introduced some bump steer but nothing crazy. Turn in can be a little sketchy. Mid corner still a little skittish but easy to gather up. Occasionally would get unsettled if I didn't pay attention, but generally quite predictable. Especially when I learned to quiet down my inputs.

    KWv3's: The end. I can't say enough about how much I love these. Compliant and supple without sacrificing happy fun times responsiveness. Pitching and diving are GONE. Body roll very well addressed, dare I say actually useable for weight transfer management. Noticeable improvements during turn in and mid corner. The car settles quickly and smoothly, remains poised until exit, which it does very gracefully for being a big fat awd sedan with a big fat sausage-fingered driver behind the wheel. During HPDE's, I could reliably put the car exactly where I wanted it almost every time (which was often the wrong place to shoot for, but that's a whole different story). Cloverleaf assassin++. The real story is the daily driving characteristics. It's communicative but extremely comfortable. Not quite the floating luxo-barge cushion of the stock setup but that's an uneasy feeling for me anyway. I may end up sleeving these and running them year round instead of...

    Bilsteins + Swifts: This was going to be my winter setup. First problem with that is this is WAAAY too low for our winters. I couldn't enjoy the storms we got this year because I was surfing on my skid plates down 35W. Sub-optimal. I'm probably going to look at getting RCE blacks instead of the swifts, or grab a set of OEM '13 struts/springs which are a bit firmer than the '10. The bilsteins are VERY good, offering many of the characteristics of the KWv3's... when it's warm. So much so that I almost didn't bother swapping on the KW's. The bilsteins are also VERY stiff in the winter. Coupled with the swifts, it can be unpleasantly firm. Overall a great setup but a little much for winter, hoping the almost stock height, progressive RCE blacks will address the shortcomings in the winter.

    Note I also had the whiteline roll center kit put on over the winter which consists of poly ball joints and longer, poly tie rod ends. Highly recommend. Stiffens up the front a bit and offers some good feedback while reducing bump steer. Good stuff.
     
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  12. SurlyOldManMN
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    SurlyOldManMN Omdat fok jou Staff Member

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  13. BernieK
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    BernieK Member

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    This is exactly the review and feedback I've been looking for. Thanks so much for sharing! I owe both of you a beverage. If you guys will humor me a bit more...
    So with the KW v3, how easy is is to adjust the ride height and do you need to realign if you drop from -1" to -2"? I'm wondering if it would make sense to summer DD at -1" and lower it to -2" for AutoX?
    Are any considerations regarding my white line swaybars with either the bilsteins or KW v3?
     
  14. TMF
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    TMF Well-Known Member

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    With regard to ride height, RCE should have recommended ride heights for front and rear that will be best for handling for your car (at least they did for my car). It shouldn't be totally slammed, and you should still have plenty of clearance for driveways, speed bumps, etc. I have not had any issues yet.

    To really dial in the ride height, you can have Jeff corner balance the car. That is basically making minor adjustments to the ride height at each corner to give you the most even weight distribution.

    Changing ride height is as easy as putting the car on jack stands, removing the wheels, and adjusting the collars with a spanner wrench. But if you have your ride height dialed in, I wouldn't want to mess with it.

    If you're concerned about ride height/running them in the winter, I would highly recommend keeping your struts/springs and just swapping those in for winter.

    The thing that you may want to adjust for DD (soft) vs autox (firm) are the compression and rebound settings, which is pretty easy to do with a few turns of an Allen key at the top and bottom of each strut. RCE should have recommended settings for these as well.

    Sway bars: generally speaking, either high spring rate and stock sway bars, or lower spring rate and medium/larger sway bars. For ride comfort, lower spring rates with your sway bars will be better. RCE should be able to provide some good recommendations on spring rate as well.
     
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  15. dang0
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    dang0 Well-Known Member

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  16. TMF
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    TMF Well-Known Member

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  17. BernieK
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    BernieK Member

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    What was the drop that you used for the front and rear on the kW v3?
     
  18. BernieK
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    BernieK Member

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    $800 for new Bilsteins are a crazy good deal...too good to pass up. Thanks for the link dangO!