A video I like

I usually stay outta these debates as everyone but me is wrong in their opinions on these issues (um, ok, I kid). However, and I am not quoting a source here as you can do a search and get it from whatever source you choose as this is not contested, death tolls for coalition troops have been higher in Afghanistan for the last two months than they have been in Iraq.

You can, of course, argue that death tolls do not make up the "things that are getting better" and are a small sacrifice for those better things, but I would say that only embarks upon a slippery slope that gets us nothing but academic debate. Are death tolls in Iraq down recently? Yes. But are they up in Afghanistan? Also, yes.

None of us get up in the morning and wonder if an IED is going to kill us on our way to work today. Or if we'll get caught in the middle of a gun battle and hope we don't get confused for members of either side. Some of us have lived this and some of us will live it. But still we have the advantage of armored vehicles, body armor, a lot of firepower to respond with, buddies watching our backs and trained to respond to medical emergencies, medevac helicopters and planes standing by, and the promise of going home where it is safe in the not terribly distant future.

This post has taken a while and I am sure the thread has moved on. I have too much to say and will do my best not to say a damn thing: I have been on both sides of the fence of this larger debate. And I have ranged far from the fence into the pastures on both sides, too. Motives drive agendas but agendas are justified by politics. To quote Ben Stiller in The Zero Effect, "There aren't good guys and bad guys. There's just a bunch of... guys!"

I do support our troops doing the jobs they contracted to do. And I also think that as citizens of a nation that posits government of, by and for the people, we need to take very personal responsibility for what we ask our government servants to do. All of them.

 

Good write up. Thanks for this. I wish we had someone who have seen this from the other side to say something, but we dont have anyone here to do it. I agree that its too late to just drop everything and leave. But its hard to just accept that the war will not end any time soon.

 

I don't think Tara's intent was ever to belittle the sacrifice the troops made and are making, although it did sound like it. I think the point he was trying to make was that it never was, nor should it be our job to get involved in the politics and laws of other nations to the extent that we are. We have essentially taken the United States Welfare program, which I would imagine the majority of you are against, and extended it over seas. We are completely neglecting our own country and putting our own soldiers in harms way for (if you get right down to brass tacks) not minding our own business.

Now I am sure people will bring up 9/11 and how the war was brought to us, and how we didn't do anything. Well we supported Israel, which resulted in the death's of quite a few of their countrymen. Again, we didn't mind our own business. We fought for our own independence and freedom, let other countries do the same. If you want change, make it happen, is that not the American way? What is happening right now is, if you want change....America will hold your hand and do it for you! All we ask in return is some perks down the road to help out some of our businesses.

The point is, that I completely admire and respect what our soldiers are doing. I also agree that we cannot pull out of this war and we must learn from our mistakes. I am sure Tara's does as well, but what this country has become is absolutely NOT what the founding fathers had in mind. It is, in my personal opinion completely misguided.

 

Afghanistan and Iraq.

Our invasion of Afghanistan was a relative success. We were at the same stage we are in Iraq now in Afghanistan in about 2004. From 2004 until 2007 the support and manpower from the insurgent backers was primarily going into Iraq because it was seen as effective. Now that Iraq is getting a bit more stable I believe that more money, materials, and men are being directed towards Afghanistan.

Also, Iraq is much more densely populated than Afghanistan. The war-weariness that affects the average Iraqi doesn't wear on the average Afghani for a couple reasons. Afghanistan is not as advanced as Iraq therefore a reduction in quality of life in terms of infrastructure (a BIG bitching point in Iraq) does not carry that large of an impact in Afghanistan. It's only a minor inconvenience.
The other reason is the aforementioned sparse population. Insurgencies work best in more densely-populated areas. Most of the fighting in Afghanistan up until 2007 took place outside of any (relatively) major metropolises. Now that there is more money and weapons coming into Afghanistan and insurgents have relative freedom of movement they are able to move in to areas that were previously unavailable to them. And also previously considered 'safe'.

The rise in insurgency in Afghanistan is bad. However robbing Peter (Iraq) to pay Paul (Afghanistan) is, in my opinion, not a good idea. Here is why:

Iraq is the center of the Middle East. Not just geographically but also religiously. There are many major religious sites for both the Sunni and the Shia in Iraq. Iraq also has oil and is located on the Persian Gulf. Afghanistan is landlocked and predominantly Sunni.

If things go to hell in Iraq the whole Middle East suffers. Entangling alliances between religious, ethnic, and economic powers will most likely result in regional war. If things go to hell in Afghanistan it will be a little bit more contained. Mountains and deserts geographically isolate that country from the ones around it and the people, for the most part, are less ethnically and religiously divided. Plus, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Pakistan are not actively trying to instigate trouble there. Iran may be trying but since the Afghans are primarily Sunni the Iranian Shia will have some difficulty in making a foothold there.

Therefore it is not a good idea to squander troops and influence from the fight to keep the center of the Middle East stable in order to pacify an insurgency in a back-water (um... no water) country.

But that's just one man's opinion. I have friends in both places and I don't want any of them left out to dry. Since I'm leaving for Iraq later this year I also have a vested interest in keeping myself surrounded with as many of my fellow soldiers as I can. So take all that into account when you read this.

 

But I was watching CNN and they said the world was coming to an end...? So did Fox...I don't get it...Does that mean...that...I am being lied to from every direction!?!?! How could my media and government do this to ME!?! I'm so lost... :-/ (all sarcasm of course)

Great write-up indeed. Thanks.

 

I call BS Jack.. I mean look where you get your information.. form firsthand experiences... not CBS.. you are dead wrong.... (sarcasm meter -------------------> )

 

Very good point. And i never understood why US is supporting Israel anyway. I am a Jew( by blood not faith) and i have never understood the bases on which Israel established a their state.

Just a little correction my name is Taras its like Russ but with a T in the beginning. :biggrin:

 

so it's not tear-uss. or tear-arse or ter-orist ha h ha

 

yeah its terrorist Nate:roll:

 

come on even you should see the humor in that... the only thing you could blow up is a balloon... ha ha

 

hahah!

 

I'm guessing he means from the perspective of an average Iraqi.

That's a hard one. One of the things I noticed over there is that empirical evidence on the part of the locals is largely lacking. Trying to teach an Iraqi policeman to do an investigation is pretty hard. Investigations usually consist of finding one person (usually the one yelling or screaming the loudest or most closely-related to the policeman) to take a statement from. Once that was complete arrests were made. We tried and tried to get them to do full American-style investigations and it was extremely difficult. We taught them, did walk-throughs, had them observe our example, held their hands throughout the process and then observed as they would try it by themselves only to do the same thing they always did. Some of our teaching slowly paid off but due to cultural differences, education levels, and general apathy it was a hard fight.

Due-process in the Iraqi police is also a bit lacking, but I digress.

I've read quite a few articles written by Iraqis on the payroll of CNN/Fox/Reuters. The bias is evident and when the numbers/descriptions of events are compared to those written by American journalists (from any major organization) that covered the same events.

What I'm getting at here is that a lot of 'other perspectives' are inflammatory and reactionary. I'm not trying to talk down about another group of people but it really is a different culture. One in which exaggeration and inflammatory accounts are considered accurate for news print. The unspoken understanding is that the reader will take that into account.

I've noticed a lot fewer of those articles coming out of Baghdad lately since the major news outlets caught on to that particular tradition.

 

by the other side i mean, solders that oppose the war.

 

or a miata engine, lol.

 

I doubt that you will find too many soldiers complaining due to the fact that they voulenteered to be where they are......

no draft....... at least that I know of lol

 

Careful there, Taras.

Just because I fight doesn't mean I'm not opposed to the war.

It's my job. I signed up and said I'd do it. I'm no war monger and the fact that I'm going to spend the next year and a half away from my family is not very pleasing to me.

I laid out my plan as the best way to save a bad situation.

I oppose the war even though I'm a soldier. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

I can tell you from what I've read on the CIA, the US government supports Israel because they were (and likely still are) our primary source of good intelligence post WWII. And by good intelligence, I mean soviet intelligence traded for weapons and money.

 

So you are opposed to the war in Iraq? You sound more like you are not, but i guess i didnt understand it right then.

What i meant is that there are a lot of solders that are opposed to the war and have lots of things to say about no real progress and such, but we are not hearing so much from them. I wonder why? And its not because its totally false.

 

So now its just old connections? Not sure what good we are getting from them right now. By supporting Israel we only getting more hate from Middle east.

 

Many of the (still current) US political and monetary relationships stem from cold war US politics. So yes, old connections.

 

So this will end eventually. I mean all those old farts will die soon anyway. I am more that sure that a war between the whole Muslim world Israel will never end.

 

i say everyone finds a new scapegoat. taras has done his share.

 

A lot of soldiers don't have the biggest view of things. Remember that I got the best of both worlds: I got to sit in on big meetings and learn about the overview, and I got to get out an meet people and see the situation on the ground.

When I spoke to the soldiers that rode around in the back of the Humvee all day waiting to get blown up they usually had a pretty... narrow view of things. Same thing when I'd go up to one of the larger HQs and talk to people who sat in their cubicle all day. Narrow view.

Also, a lot of soldiers are disgruntled. They don't have anything positive to say about anything. 3 tours in Iraq can either make you very happy to be alive and positive or it can beat you down until every time you say the word "Iraqi" it is preceded by the word "****in'".

I also keep tabs on the news and keep in touch with friends who are there. We don't pull punches with each other and no one that is over there that I'm friends with is going to paint a rosy picture for me.

Happy stories from soldiers returning from Iraq are not newsworthy. You're not going to get that from almost ANY news outlet and the ones that do print those are either hometown newspapers or Right-wing groups.

What you're getting from me is my opinion on what I've seen based on my experience. I'm generally pretty upbeat about my job but if I hadn't raised my right hand I wouldn't be in the Army. But I'm not going to tell you that the whole country is going to hell in a handbasket just because I have to leave my family. It really is getting better. I'm (nervously) excited to get back over there and see how things have improved for the better. If they haven't then I'll come back and tell you the real deal.

I support no administration. I support no political side. I support what I see as the best course for the nation considering the current circumstances.

 

Etchy, good write-ups (and negotiation before them, too...lol). And thanks for the sacrifice that your experience has cost. Stay safe, eh.

However, I would comment that you didn't mention the European news sources in your last comparison. I only mention them as the difference between US news sources and diverse European sources during Kosovo were fairly significant.

Our media would announce each day that the bombing campaigns were continuing successfully with yet another day of zero civilian casualties while the European news (BBC, Deutsche Welle, France 2, etc.) would be talking about the passenger bus destroyed while crossing a bridge (which was also destroyed) or the cruise missile landing in a Kosovo suburb (or was it Serbian, I forget. But there are documentaries on it now.) in the middle of the night, to name two examples.

Side note - As far as empirical data: it requires an observer to observe or decipher after the fact. All relationships are subjective as they require the interpretation of events from the point of view of each one involved. An object cannot relate to anything except as a subject. Hence all observations are not "objective" but rather "subjective." Existentialism 101, but not meant to be instructive, just a note. And since I can't pass it up, as Obi-wan said, "...many of the things we cling to depend upon a certain point of view."

 

Etch, you're gaining more and more man respect from me daily. With this and the t3hw00t thread, :cheers:

/manlove :biggrin:

 

Thanks a lot. Yeah it will be great if you can bring some eye witness news to us when you comeback.

 

When someone asks me how I can be in one of the armed forces despite the war going on, and what my feelings are towards it, I reply that it really doesn't matter what I think or feel on the matter. Sure, I have opinions on the subject, but as a volunteer being payed not only by way of a paycheck but free college and health benefits, I'm doing it by choice and getting rewarded for it. It might sound selfish and cynical, but most times I consider myself more of a mercenary (despite the fact that I'm a network admin as opposed to a gun toting marine) that fights for a paycheck vs. some over riding sense of "right."

Just my $.02

 

I think solders get paid way to little for the job they do. And free college tuition is not so free. And if McCain get the throne there will be no GI bill.

 

I also want to clarify that I at least mostly, if not completely, agree with Etchy. My points were not points of argument, only ponder. I understand his position of somewhat wider view than many from my experience in the service; and it is indeed a privileged place to be. We are there - right or wrong - and we have to accept a responsibility for the people our presence has effected.

Another point I have pondered regards this issue of draft. While there is no active draft, consider if you enlisted out of High School, got married to your HS sweetheart - also only a HS graduate - and had a kid or two in your four years of service. Now it is time to decide whether to re-enlist or not. Consider: HS diploma, 4 yrs military service doing (fill in the blank), housing, utilities, medical coverage, family assistance (many military families are eligible for WIC), etc. And all this will continue if you stay in the service. Or you can get out and hope to find a job with little education and very little if any civilian world job skills that will support your family and have the needed coverage for emergencies. Yeah, there is no draft, but... like I said, just something I have thought about once in a while.

 

Also, military training most often will transfer into college credits--which is nice.

 

I am sure not everyone enlisting to the army can pick whatever they want. There are many who still have to do jobs that has nothing to do with civilian life. And there are many companies that will think twice before employing a war vet, thinking if he or she has a PTSD.

 

Existentialism...good times.

It's the root of the agnostic POV. Everything is a subjective experience.

 

Thats true that the food and board are paid, still not enough though. Just like teachers dont get paid **** for their important.

I am just saying that McCains voting record is very strange. And when he votes against GI bill because people in the army will leave it to go get education if you give them a chance is low.

 

Discrimination is everywhere these days. That are obviously will not say that they dont want you because you have been in the military. They will say something like you are "overqualified" or something like that.

 

The GI bill does need to be re-worked, and made better suited for the times we're in. The various wars we're involved in aren't stopping anytime soon, so it's time for the administration to help our guys out with better benefits, more pay, etc.

McCain is a decrepit old man. He's served his country well, but not fit for the white house. Just because he's a war veteran, doesn't make him suitable to run the big house.

Obama IS a change of pace, but he's still a very liberal politician. If I had to choose today, I would vote for Obama, since McCain is the only other option :-/

They both have their good points and their bad. It's just too bad they're the only ones we get to choose from in the election.

 

Agree. Its a choice between an old man that can die any minute and a very liberal young guy. At least Obama is like you said a change of pace and everyone in the world loves him. Europe is raving about him becoming the next president of US. Thats a good thing because everyone on the world hates Bush.

 

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/a...on_a_new_gi_bill_scorns_criticism_from_obama/

 

As I said before, I'm an independent. So, I don't just adopt one party's views wholesale.

On the GOP side, I would love lower taxes, smaller government and such. It's just too bad that with the current administration, they've strayed far off from normal GOP values. So, that steers me away from that "side."

On the Dem side, they can be a little too liberal with spending (at times) on entitlement programs, bigger government, more regulations, etc.

So, it's a matter of finding a good balance. Both of these candidates try to do this by flip-flopping every other week. You can't please everybody, but that's what politicians do best. My current knowledge tells me that McCain USED TO be more progressive, but now he's starting to sway the way of the Bush family. This will be very bad for him come the election.

Obama on the other hand, is fairly solid. He's flip-flopped on a few things. But one thing he's always made the right choice on is the war. In no way do I mean that I don't support what our troops are doing there. I only mean that we were duped into it, and he knew it from the beginning and voted his conscience. Also, his stance on diplomacy first is something that I think this country could benefit from instead of the pre-emptive imperialistic policies of the current administration.

So...it is what it is. We can't just back out of Iraq, and be as irresponsible about getting out of there as we were going in. I mean, we didn't even try to protect international interests like museums...the fact that a lot of that stuff is just gone is sad.

Side-note* - McCain hasn't even voted in the Senate since April 8th...where's the dedication? He's old. He's tired. He doesn't even campaign on weekends! I'm sure if he gets elected, he'll need 8 months of vacation time just like GWB in his first year...But apparently with faxes, phones, and email, you don't have to be in Washington to work :-/