OK guys I'm in a huge bind... I've got an 04 WRX that is having drive train issues. After driving about a mile, the car started to slow down even though the RPMs and speedometer we're going up. I pulled over to the side of the road and pumped the clutch but when I gave it gas and let the clutch out the car barely moved and it sounded like the clutch was grinding. The clutch was replaced last winter after doing the exact same thing. I do have a bad TGV but I've been driving the car very cautiously for a day or two. I find it hard to believe that this is related to getting the car tuned 2 weeks ago. The only mods on the car are an Invidia downpipe skunk2 muffler grimmspeed EBCS, AEM short ram intake and a Greddy Rs bypass valve. I'm hoping to go pick the car up tomorrow and bring it back to Rochester does anybody have any advice on where to take it to get the problem diagnosed or if there's someone here in Rochester who might be kind enough to stop by and take a look? It's my only car and I have a full school schedule asking with work.
If the speedo was going up and it was grinding the problem is not the clutch. The speedo pickup is in the transmission. I think it is on the output shaft. If that shaft was increasing in speed the clutch was doing its job. The problem would be in between there and the wheels. I would think that your center diff is completely shot. Or the output shaft in your trans. If I were you I would look for a new used transmission to swap in. I don't know much about mechanics in Rochester but have not heard anything good about the Subaru dealer there.
Awww that was the last thing I wanted to hear lol... I haven't looked at used transmitions yet... Is there a way of isolating the problem so I don't end up replacing something that isn't broken?
My bet is transfer gears. Those have a tendency to strip, and then it's like the driveshaft is disconnected. The LSD in the center diff is trying to send power to the front, but it's loosing. This can be done with the transmission in the car. The 2 gears are ~$400 or so new from Subaru, depending on your source. There are 3 bearings that I would definitely replace, and 2 shims that should be measured, and ordered accordingly. The upper 2 bearings are tapered rollers, and must have some preload on them to function properly.
This sounds like something I wouldn't be able to do by myself not having don't it before... Has anyone else done this or have some advice on how to do it if it's possible?
Just get a year subscription to AAA. Pays for itself in this one tow. Then still have 2 free tows of up yo 100 miles left for the year as well as the discounts it provides on hotel rooms.
Oh? I don't suppose you know if they check the trunk during these free tows to hotel rooms do they? Asking for a friend.
So I had the car looked at by a local transmission shop, and they thought that the problem is in the transfer case.. I'm not familiar with a lot of the drive train components so I don't know what I should look for to replace whats broken. Would anyone be willing to educate me on exactly what I should look for to get my car back on the road. I tried just doing a google search for "04 wrx transfer case" but didn't see clear results. Is the transfer case the same thing as the center differential?
Transfer gears I mentioned: that is the rear-most cover off the back of the transmission. The lower (right in this picture) shaft inserts into the center differential, and the upper one has splines that engage the driveshaft. My coworker just had his go out, and managed to get his hands on several used transmissions that ended up being ruined. He ended up getting all new parts (3 bearings, 2 shaft/gear assemblies).
So what your suggesting is to rebuild the transmission/transfer case? I don't think I'm not going to be able to do this myself.
Year: 2004 Model: WRX Mods: AEM Short Ram Intake Grimm Speed EBCS Invida Downpipe Skunk 2 Muffler Greddy RS BPV JM Automotive Tune 18" rims in good shape Viper remote start 4704 ($250 for just the system, mile range, 2-way system) EDIT How much do you guys think the car would be worth as is? There are plenty of cosmetic issues including a crack in the front bumper, missing drivers side foglight cover, crack in driver side mirror cover to name a few only one small rust spot over front drivers side fender.
Bumping this for Ryan...grab a cup of coffee and have a read A brief description of the symptoms/history with this ongoing issue in his words: "For the past 3 winters the car has broke down in the exact same way. Out of no where while driving at low speeds (30-40 miles an hour) on a very cold winter day (all 3 times it was well below freezing) the clutch would partially disengage and begin to slip under low load (I would stop at a stop sign accelerate up to 30ish miles/hour let off the gas to shift or slow down and then I would notice the slipping...). It would grab just enough to limp it somewhere off the main road. The first time I had a friend replace just the clutch and it was back on the road. The next winter it did the exact same thing so I took it to a transmission shop where they told me I had a defective clutch and replaced it. They also noticed that the output shaft on the Transmission was very loose (you could move it up or down a half inch) so they opened up the transmission and replaced both of the bearings that align the main shaft within the transmission. This got me back on the road for almost a whole year. Finally this past winter it did it again, and the car has just sat in my driveway ever since" @Cody Weatherly and I went and took a look at the car a few weeks ago and my initial thought was the clutch was just shot. There was a faint grinding/whirring noise with the car in gear and giving it throttle that sounded like the clutch disc just spinning and not having enough clamping power to fully engage. The noise really sounded like it was coming from within the bellhousing. He brought the car down to Austin for help with replacing the clutch... We got the motor out within a few hours of working on it and I was expecting (hoping) to see lots of clutch disc feathering or literally chunks of clutch disc inside the bellhousing, but that was hardly the case. We pulled the clutch and it still looks like it has plenty of life left. My initial thought was maybe the flywheel had been resurfaced so many times that it's out of spec and too thin, causing it to not fully clamp once the clutch disc had worn down a bit. This is now the 3rd time that the same thing has happened to him, each time a new clutch fixes it for about a year of driving before giving out again (this is what boggles my mind)....if it was a transmission issue mechanically, why would a new clutch fix the issue for a period of time before the issue reared up again?? The clutch that was in there when we pulled it was an Exedy OEM replacement clutch, in fact it's the same clutch kit Ryan bought to replace the (presumed) bad clutch. Again, by the looks of the disc, it has plenty of life left. So that brought us to troubleshooting the transmission as best we could. I'm fairly knowledgeable on most every aspect of the engine components, but not so much when it comes to transmissions and Subaru's AWD system...here is where we need some guidance/suggestions/expertise. We put the old clutch disc on the input shaft of the transmission and had one guy hold it still (simulating the engine still being in the car with the clutch engaged and the engine off). With the trans in 1st gear, we spin either of the front wheels and the opposite front wheel spins the opposite direction...this I believe to be normal. We spin the driver front while holding the clutch disc in place, the driveshaft will spin and will rotate the passenger rear. Adversely, we spin the passenger side front while holding the clutch disc in place, the driveshaft does NOT spin. We spin the passenger rear, the driveshaft spins, but we get no movement out of the front wheels nor the driver side rear. We spin the driver's side rear wheel, no driveshaft movement and no passenger rear wheel movement either. That wheels seems to just free wheel. What any of this means, I am not entirely sure. Any things to try, things to look at, other troubleshooting tips? Halp? @Chux
I'm by no means familiar or knowledgeable enough on this topic to know, so consider this just a related question, but has the pressure plate been changed out each time the "clutch" (assuming clutch disk only?) was replaced? Or was it a total clutch kit install each time? Edit - Probably disregard this, as I just read the rest of the thread. Dur.
So reading over the thread last time there was much of an update it was at a transmission shop with speculation of bad center diff/transfer gears. What became of this? Also its easy enough pull the rear diff cover and inspect that to rule out the rear diff.
No worries, all input and suggestions welcome. But yes, my understanding is that pp, disc, tob and pilot bearing were replaced each time. I think he said they replaced a couple of bearing is all, but not sure on the details of what was done. There was mention of a transfer case, which I'm not sure if that was confused with "transfer gears" or the tranny shop just wasn't familiar with Subarus at all.
Ryan will have to confirm, but he replaced the rear diff fairly recently as well. But we could certainly look at that. Would a bad rear diff cause the car to basically be inoperable and not move more than a crawl?
Now that we have the clutch off and have looked at it, everything points to a trans/drivetrain issue of some sort. But it absolutely makes no sense to me how replacing the clutch (twice) has resolved the issue for about a years worth of driving each time. It's also possible that the issue now is an entirely different issue than he's dealt with the past two times...
re-inspect the center diff and the passenger front axle. re: clutch fixing the symptoms... how do the input shaft and pilot bearings/mating surfaces from the old clutch(es) look?
Axles all seem to be in good shape. No torn boots and solid CVs. I'm honestly not sure what reinspecting the CD involves, sadly...will research that when I get some more free time today. Input shaft and pilot bearing mating surfaces looked normal too :/
pull the front passenger axle out and inspect the mating surfaces as well as the operation of the axle independently/out of the hub re: Center Diff, pull the exhaust and driveshaft to access it with trans still in place
I'm not completely sure I have a grasp of exactly what combinations you've tested. But, that car should have an LSD in the center and rear. You should not be able to overcome either of those by hand. So both rear wheels should spin the same direction and same speed. And front and rear output should spin the same direction and same speed. I sounds like you're overcoming both...which would tell me that the viscous unit in both of those diffs has failed. Whether that's the cause or another symptom is still in question. A coworker of mine had a rear axle that wasn't quite seated in the diff. Most of the time, the car drove perfectly. Occasionally, the splines would not engage, and it would feel like a VERY badly slipping clutch (except the speedometer would go up, not just tach). Basically, I'm guessing it's an intermittent fluke thing that's going to be very hard to pin down (and you're going to want the engine in to test it). The only thing you know, is it's after the output shaft of the transmission. The fact that the speedometer moves when it acts up eliminates anything before it (gears, synchros, clutch, etc.). Assuming the center and rear diff are toast, it's somewhat likely that the original problem is the rear diff or a rear axle, as that's the only one components of the drivetrain that could burn up both diffs. But it's not impossible that one or more symptom is unrelated, either. Ideally you'd have it on a 4 post hoist, with someone in it, and someone underneath it while it's acting up to see what is spinning and what isn't.....but that probably isn't going to happen. I would start with a very close inspection of the axles. Checking for any play or binding, and making sure they're seated correctly in the diffs (pulling them out away from the diff to make sure). Inspect the boots closely, looking for any evidence that the axle shaft has been spinning inside the boot. Honestly, without seeing any obvious damage there, I'd probably just shoot the parts cannon at it, as much as I hate diagnosing that way. It sounds like the LSDs are shot anyway....I'd get a used rear diff (I see several on car-part for less than $200), and then replace the center diff (new, OEM. Either Morries with the discount, or an online supplier. If you'd like to shoot me a VIN, I can send you a parts list) or a used transmission.
Thank you for the detailed info! We will more closely inspect each axle..especially the driver rear since that one seems to be free wheeling. I'm also not sure what the rear diff was replaced with so maybe it wasn't a compatible drive ratio with the 5mt. Also, Ryan confirmed that the speedo does move with throttle input, not just RPM. I didn't think to ask about that previously...so that rules out a clutch issue all together... tbc
Trust me if it was a not compatible gear ratio you would know immediately lol. But it is possible that when it was changed it was changed for an open diff.
An intermittent rear axle popping out of the rear diff seems like a liable explanation, but I keep coming back to the new clutch fixing the issue two times!
Rear diff was replaced at some point? Where does that fit in with this timeline? I'm assuming that the clutch replacement resolution was largely a coincidence. Assuming a shop did it, they probably dropped the transmission, which means front axles, and driveshaft were removed. The bad part may have been jostled enough to get it to act normally, but not really a fix. I read your diagnostic description again, and I would agree that the one rear is freewheeling. I might pull and disassemble that axle first, maybe even replace it. CV axles have balls, cages, splines, etc. that can slip around and engage sometimes and slip others. IIRC when Martin first discovered launch control, he munched a rear outer CV, but it did some intermittent weirdness. Maybe the diffs are OK... I was hung up on these sentences: These seem to contradict each other.
The rear diff replacement, I am not 100% sure... @RHill051 will need to chime in on that. As for my quote, I still believe that to be true, but will look again. It was getting late, we were stumped and frustrated so my recollection may be a bit off...but I'll try to clarify. With the old clutch disc on the input shaft of the trans, we had one guy holding the disc in place to keep the input shaft from moving (as if the engine was in and car is off) and trans in first gear Spinning the driver side front wheel spins the passenger front wheel in the opposite direction and also spins the driveshaft which was rotating only the passenger rear wheel. The driver rear was the only one not moving in this scenario. Spinning the passenger side front wheel spins the driver front wheel in the opposite direction but does NOT spin the drive shaft (neither rear wheels spin) Hopefully that kinda makes sense. Going to do all of these tests again tonight and take notes as we go......
OK, yea, I think I understand what you were doing there, now. Free spinning, that could be as simple as a slight difference in brake drag, it wouldn't take much. So yea, go after that one rear axle with a very fine tooth comb. I think I'd pull it out, and look very closely for any signs of slippage on the splines in the transmission. Also pull the axle boot towards the cup, and see if the shaft is polished underneath it (indicating the shaft was spinning inside the cup at some point).
that would have been done December of 2013. The car then proceeded to have clutch/transmission issues every winter from there on. I have to be honest though, the reason the read diff needed replacing was because of a rather pitiful drift I did in a not snowy enough parking lot. I take full responsibility for that entirely regrettable drift lol
Sure enough, this was it. The driver rear axle wasn't pushed all the way into the rear diff. And as Chux alluded to, it could just be coincidence that when they dropped the trans to fix it last that it jarred that rear axle enough so it was engaged for a while before popping out again. I was able to slide it in by hand a quarter inch and confirmed it was on the splines by spinning he wheel and now the opposite rear wheel spins and the driveshaft spins. A little love tap with the BFH set the axle all the way into the diff. This was definitely the source of the issue. Now it's just a matter of, did it do any damage to the center diff? We won't really know till it's all back together. And looks like we should be able to pull the center diff with the trans in the car...so if it's excessively noisy we'll have to tackle that too. Pulling the motor wasn't a lost cause at least. We planned on changing the valve cover gaskets, resealing the oil pan, and we found a bad motor mount when we pulled the engine too. We also got the engine cleaned up pretty well and will probably take the opportunity to clean up the engine bay a bit while the engine is out. Thanks again for the suggestions and direction fellas! MNSubaru coming in clutch yet again!
So my question is, how does one axle shaft not being engaged cause the entire vehicle to not be able to drive still, considering it's an AWD system? Like on a traditional 4x4 setup, if you locked the front in and removed the rear driveshaft, you'd still be able to drive.
The drivetrain is basically trying to send power to the wheel with the least amount of resistance. So it was naturally trying to drive the axle that wasn't connected. Open diffs
Sucks it took so long to diagnose but thankfully he no longer needs to throw any more parts at the car and hopefully will have a reliable car for years to come!
AWD has a center differential, 4WD locks the front and rear together. There's a viscous LSD in the center and rear diff that put some power to the other 3, but not much. This is why it feels like a slipping clutch. That's why an LSD isn't really any better than an open diff when rock crawling. Once you lift a tire off the ground, you're toast.
Yep, I've noticed that in the BRZ if I tripod going up a steep ramp the wheel in the air is the only one that spins. I've read that holding the handbrake might give enough resistance to give the other wheel some power but I've never tried.
