Clogged valves, Shop blaming gas, $4200.00 to fix!

No where in my statement did I suggest that. I was just commenting that the additive packages stations put in their fuel is where the difference is.

 

Out of all the turbo vehicles we see come in with problems, then why is it that they are the one's that fill up at Holiday? It may be that those people are not running their car hard, and dogging it all the time which loads up the engine with too much fuel.

Either way, I won't run it. I'm sure that Holiday is just using the word "Blue Planet" as a selling point...and they really sell the same crap gas that SA and all the mom & pop stations sell...

BP must sell it too, but from the tuning standpoint, it just works much better than other stations.

Logs don't lie, but that doesn't matter because all the fuel comes from the same place.

 

How much tuning have you done? How many motors have you gone through?

Just because you were told that the fuel comes from the same refinery in no way means it is exactly the same fuel. Like stated previously, hearsay and internet lurking is not comparable to actual experience. End of story. There is too much evidence from several people with experience to refute it.

 

Blue planet means it meets the EPA 2010 requirements.


Do you really believe that if some large chain was selling gas that killed engines that some lawyer wouldn't jump on top of it and sue the crap out of them.

I'll admit it may change with a heavy tune (in terms of knock and such), but that isn't what we're talking about here. We're talking about a "completely stock" motor.

 

Don't gas stations warranty against dirty engines, like if you get a gas related problem, the gas station company will fix your car? I can't say I've ever heard of it happening, but I'd be curious to see someone try and follow through on it. :laugh:

It'd be hard for me to up and just blame gas.

I'm not really sure what you're going to do now. It's in a shop, torn to pieces, and they want $4200 from ya. Your move. :eek4:

 

Even without a published warranty, they're liable.

 

I'm of the opinion that it's the Holiday gas as well. About a month after I got my car, I got a CEL. Took it to M1LLER (or whatever his name is on here) to pull the code and it was misfire in cylinder 1. He asked me where I last filled up and I told him Holiday.

Ever since then I've filled up at only BP and haven't had a CEL since. That's enough evidence for me. Plus, for anyone saying that BP isn't the closest gas station to you...stop being lazy! It's not that hard to drive an extra 5 minutes for the well being of your car!

 

Try being a dedicated Shell consumer. They didn't even have a station in Eden Prairie.

And here, I need to use 100 octane, and only one company sells it. I hope it's good 100 octane, 'cos if it's not, I might as well sell up and buy a Prius. The Type-R that I looked at last October had blown headgaskets. The guy fessed up to running it on 98 octane. Oopth !

Stuart.

 

ha ha try Jordan... I drive to Prior Lake, Shakopee or Bloomington Shell just near Burger King off 169... sometimes the only time I go there is to fill up... yep 15-20 min to fill up... but like Jason if I am in desperate need I will throw $10 in at the local and get me to the next day if I am running near a shell or BP but mostly shell... although with all the reports I am hearing with their new formula and turbo cars...

 

Either way, want to not have problems with this crap... Run gas from these places:

TOP TIER Gasoline Retailers:

QuikTrip
Chevron
Texaco
MFA Oil Co.
Conoco
Phillips 66
76
Entec Stations
Shell
The Somerset Refinery, Inc.
Kwik Trip / Kwik Star
Aloha Petroleum
Tri-Par Oil Co.
Turkey Hill Minit Markets
Mileage Stations
Chevron Canada
Shell Canada
Petro-Canada
Sunoco Canada

If you want to run Holiday fuel, use it at your own risk. And in the case you do run it, opt to Sea-Foam your car often to keep the deposits to a minimum.

 

May I ask, where does this list come from or how was it compiled (sort of, how was "TOP TIER" defined)?

Also, I notice that BP (often recommended) is not on the list.

 

Go hear, and read all you need to know. http://www.toptiergas.com/

 

My bad. I was thinking "TOP TIER" was supposed to be descriptive, not an additive. lol.

 

Neither is Sunoco nor Mobil.

 

the sunoco by my house, the highest octane is 89, WEAK

 

:eek4:

That's like having an STi with only 135 horsepower!!

 

isn't there an sti on here with 13x hp? :laugh:

 

It means they have a certain additive package AND have paid the top tier gas people a fee.

 

that'd be pretty frickin lame! a 136hp sti would kick its ass

 

135 is weak sauce.


EDIT: i should read the whole thread.

 

Well....I still don't have my car back! They did the valve job and put it back together. Check engine light on again, now they think it is a injector!
Today is day #16 without my car.
Pretty frusterated!

 

So they did a complete valve job without weighing out all the options? I started getting misfire codes back last summer when I would run gas bought out of the metro or Holiday gas when I needed it. I at first jumped to the conclusion that it was my tune, after further research (many logs and tunes later) the misfire did not go away (P0304 cylinder 4 misfire). I then put in plugs, fuel filter and a swapped all the coils. The misfire code went away for about 300 miles then came back on, I then did more logs and tuning which came back to the same result. Finally I got a wild hair up my ass and went out to the garage and swapped my injector from cylinder 4 (the misfire cylinder) with the injector on cylinder 2. What do ya know I know have a cylinder 2 misfire (P0302). Now I am waiting on my options, I think I may just borrow a set of injectors and send in the questionable one.

Good luck to you man! The whole situation seems kind of ****ty at this point and I hope it works out for you in the end.

 

BP sells Amoco gas IIRC. Granted that's not on the "top tier" list either. My jdm engine seems to like BP most, so I'm not gonna argue with it.

Also, I'll share my little secret. There is a BP on the corner of 169 and 63rd ave N in maple grove, just a little bit south of where 169 meets 694 close to brooklyn center. They just recently got premium 93 oct there, like a month ago, but it's only available on some of their pumps. Many times I'll drive all the way from st. paul just to get some, since I visit relatives in brooklyn park almost weekly. They seem to get a lot of business there too, which is a good sign the fuel is moving in and out of the tanks at a good rate.

Google even has a street view pic of it:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&i...bp=12,159.01062238216104,,0,7.712053571428571

 

Passing through the Cities last August we hit a BP just off 94, I believe, at any rate it was in Plymouth - whatever 94 or x94 goes through there. Anyway, they had 91 Oct non-oxygenated, no ethanol at the pump. "Off-Road use only" of course. The wrx liked that.

The BP across the border in Hudson (north side of 94 at the top of the hill. Exit after it and then take the frontage road back. entry ramp west-bound right at the BP) has 92 Oct non-oxy, non-E.

 

Not sure how many times I'm going to have to say this (forever?), but non-oxy gas is worse for performance then E10 gas. Ethanol is a knock retardant.

In addition, the BP by my house (Lexington and 94) recently re-signed their pumps to say 93. This seems to happen (between 93 and 92 marked) around twice a year at random times. Guess is they have requirements about octane testing and once in awhile get tested at 92.x octane and have to drop the signs down a notch. It's the same gas, regardless.

 

Well, I guess I have never been in the right place when you have said it before. Very good info. I will hold any questions that have developed from this revelation for another time and thread (and following some search button attempts, to be sure). Thanks!

 

When they told me what they wanted to do. I was concerned that they didn't seem to be interested in doing the basics. I inquired about the coil pack, injectors and asked if the there was anything else that should be done first. They were adamant about doing the tear down to see what was going on. They are the experts...so I took their word for it.
Now it seems they did all of that work, and it didn't fix it!
I guess we will see what happens.

 

Compression was down on that cyl, how exactly is that not diagnosing it correctly chet?

 

From what I read by the OP the work done to it didn't take care of the cel and by no means do I want to get in a pissing match over this.

Like I said, I hope this gets resolved and in the best way possible for the OP.

 

Just because the valve clearance was still "pretty close to spec" does not mean that the valve seat has not moved. On two separate engines, both factory engines. One Yamaha and one Honda, I have witnessed a valve seat drop only on 1/2 of it.

The cause, when the seats were pressed in they were not pressed in square and not fully seated, so they were sitting at an angle. When the valve seats were ground/cut(yes even virgin heads have to have a valve job) the valve sealing surface was then squared up with the valve guide and the valve face as a result of the grinding. However the valve seat is still sitting at a angle not fully seated in the head.

In both cases as miles were put on the engine the seats were slowly pounded square in the pocket now leaving the valve sealing surface at an angle instead, which at that point they would not seal. Clearances in both engines (OHC engines) were within .001" of factory spec. The tell tale sign of this on both engines was after getting the valves out the affected valve seats appeared to have a egg shaped grind/cut that was uneven when looking straight down at them. Upon removing the seats we then measured the ground/cut height of them and found one was .0005" shorter on one side and the other engine was more sever at almost .0008". Well within valve clearance specs but enough to not allow the valve to seal.

Why didn't the valve clearance appear to change? Because the high side of the valve seat is what prevents the valve from traveling farther back in the head and closing up the valve clearance. You also don't have a clue as to where that valve clearance was set by the assembler at the factory, making it virtually irrelevant. Checking the valve clearance may not have ruled out the valve seat migrating. You only checked for one indicator of a migrating valve seat.

A migration of this type also side loads the valve stem to a small degree and can cause increase oil consumption through the valve guide/seal.

Low compression does not mean you diagnosed the entire problem or even part of the problem. All it means is that you found a symptom of a problem. A compression test only tells you where to look. Oddly enough the misfire code had already told you that. A leak down test properly utilized would have given more direction then the compression test. Eliminate the rings as a component in the problem by squirting a heavy oil on the cylinder walls during the test. Though harder to fully utilize due to Subaru pistons laying on their side rather then a in a vertical bore. It is still possible.

Wouldn't it suck if it was also worn piston rings that were a major contributor to the low compression number. Or if it was a faulty injector, electrical issue that was the true cause of the mis. Like I said, it doesn't appear like all the proper avenues were explored prior to the diagnosis of this engine.

The customer came in with a misfire code. As others have pointed out there are other causes for a misfire. Again from what both parties are saying it doesn't sound like those other options were explored to their full potential in this case. A case that could possibly leave the customer with a bad taste for the shop and make a shop look foolish. Neither of which bring that customer back for future business. In today's world of the internet situations like this touch more then just this one customer, they touch every one who reads about the cases like this. It only spreads the reputation faster, good or bad.

Another thing to keep in mind is that there is the possibility that the problems have been found and corrected. Only to be forted by some thing stupid like a electrical connector that no longer is making a good connection after being removed and re-installed. I have even seen wires break in the sheath leaving professionals scratching their heads.


Only the end result to this scenario will tell if every thing was done properly and a customer walks away happy or not.

 

And you are?

 

Don't know how many Subaru engines you have worked on, but I have never seen one where it wouldn't be obvious if the seat was "egg" shaped. You can clearly see where the seat was not contacting or "seating" with the valve. Your saying that .0005" of a warped seat would cause a valve not to seal, and cause major engine vacuum fluctuation? Well, maybe on a small engine (motorcycle or ATV), but not something such as this car. .0005" isn't much at all, like you probably already know, but you would be able to see the contact pattern on the seat and valve.

Either way, now that the engine is back together, yes it still has a misfire. Yes it sucks that you (the OP) don't have your car back yet, but when there is two different issues happening at one time... it's not always easiest to diagnose.

Yes, we could have just thrown parts at it to start, such as injectors, plugs, coils, and every other ignition related part... but that's not the right way to do it either.

Just an FYI, we did try a different coil that was known good before it was diagnosed as a valve issue. This misfire stayed right where it was.

We very rarely (and I have never seen one in the 5yrs I have been there) see injectors on a WRX go bad. Chet, you have a completely different situation because you have modded injectors which have been tampered with...

Sorry to DirtDart that it has gone the way it has, but the valve job was not un-needed. It just didn't solve the whole issue. The good news is, that your engine vacuum now holds steady, and you won't have to worry about burning a valve due to improper seating or carbon buildup.

 

Brady is a good guy who has a good understanding and working knowledge of engines. He had a reman shortblock from BP that went bad, and he won the case against them because Cummins did a lousy job of rebuilding his and didn't want to warranty something that was their fault. I don't think he's pointing any fingers, just offering up his own experience which may or may not apply in this case.

FWIW, after I bought my 02 wagon I started getting an intermittent misfire code that eventually resulted in 3 seperate flashing CEL episodes. Long story short, we didn't find the culprit until after we'd taken off the timing cover. Turns out the little metal piece that goes over the crank pulled had a bolt that had backed off and started to drag on the timing belt. It had actually worn a hole in the center of the belt about six inches long.

Either way, hopefully the OP can get back to enjoying his WRX soon.

 

I'll take these section by section to keep them clean.

Regardless of if it is a Subaru engine or not, the pieces involved are similar, have the same function and operate in the same way. An engine is nothing more then an air pump, it draws air in and pushes it out. This technology has not changed much in the past 100 years. 100 years ago engines had valves and valve seats, guess what most still have then today and they are not much different. As such it works much the same no mater the size or the manufacture, leaving the diagnosis very similar.

No, it is not obvious if the cut of the sealing surface of a valve seat is perpendicular the the back of the seat or not. Which appears egged shaped, or thinner on one side then the other. You really have to look for it and you may not be able to see it with out setting it up on a vision scope to measure the difference on one side compared to the other, we are talking tenths of a thousandth which I know you realize. Regardless of size it still only takes as little as a tenth or two to cause a valve leak. This is why valve seats are lapped with the valve after cutting/grinding, it insures they mate properly and fully by wearing them into each other. Though it does no use if the seat shifts in the pocket after the fact for any number of reasons.

As far as seeing the contact and wear pattern on the valve and seat. It depends on how long it was run after the seat migrated. Both are made of hardened materials which may take some time to develop a new wear pattern.

Yes .0005" is enough to cause the valve not to seat and seal. I get the feeling you think just because these examples were motorcycles that their valves are small the Yamaha Warrior in this case has a bore of 97mm with a four valve head, similar to the EJ20 so going on a limb I would assume the valve diameter should be very close in size to the EJ20 valve diameter. Don't feel like walking out to the garage to check.

I am not saying a valve seat has migrated either, this is just a response to how to tell if one had.

This is where I am saying, and it is just that saying, I have not seen it or the parts of it so I can't give a first hand opinion on it, only possible scenarios, options.

Are there really two different issues? Or is it that when the when the compression test came up with low numbers, it was decided it would be best just to pull it apart and see what was found(being it most likely had to come apart any way)? Upon finding the carbon, then assuming that was the cause for every thing. Now after the fact the realization that there was/is another underlying problem.

I say this because from what the op has posted along with others involved it looks like there were avenues of diagnosis that were possibly left unexplored.

Are/were the valves the only cause for the low compression? Or is it possible the rings/piston may be partially to blame?

Could the misfire be the cause of the carbon build up and the carbon build up the cause for the low compression test numbers if the build up was in the port/s? Leading you right back to the present/remaining misfire, is it the same misfire?

Again just tossing ideas out there.

I am not saying to throw parts at it.
Swapping the appropriate wires on the coil could have ruled out a faulty coil. Even swapping injectors from one cylinder to another and seeing if the mis follows the injector.

Doing a leak down test to see if it is leaky valve, piston/ring, headgasket related or a combination of a couple after the compression test to further help narrow it down.

It just looks like a few basic steps have been skipped. They may have been done and not mentioned but like I said I am only offering my observation from what has been posted.

A long the lines of tossing parts at things. Many of the mechanics I have worked with and even my self included have paid for our own basic spare parts to keep in our boxes for diagnostic purposes. To this day I still have known good coils, crank/cam sensors I keep in my box, I even have test connectors to bypass ignition switches for a few motorcycles and GM cars where failing ignition switches were common place. Much easier to unplug a wire harness and plug in a connector to bypass a ignition switch as a possible cause, then to throw one at it hopping it is the problem. Funny how manufactures don't change those items very often, so they can be used across many years and models. Which makes them rather cost effective for the mechanic to have compared to some of the specialty tools we have stowed away in our boxes. Subaru's are no different, I guess I expect small common items like this to be part of the mechanics diagnostic tools.

Some times "trying" other parts can save time and headaches, especially on problems that can have a intermittent cause like a misfire.

Which is good, and proves that trying other known good parts does not always come at a cost to the customer.

What about the wire, was it swapped with one from another cylinder?
Very basic, yet has no one mentioned it being ruled out. Or a injector being swapped?

Just because it is rare does not mean it should be over looked. Which can happen easily when items that typically don't fail do fail.

Thank you Brian,

I am not attacking either party. I am only offering up things that I see may have been over looked or items I think still need to be looked into. Maybe they have been done, maybe they have not, but not seeing them posted in the thread and coming from a similar field I tend to assume they have been over looked. If you assume that they have been done and they were indeed skipped, Then you are no better then the mechanic the overlooked them.

It is just a second set of eyes looking at the problem. I intend no disrespect to any one involved in the repair and I don't want the op to think his car is in the hands of a foolish shop. Morries MTK is one of the few shops I would put on my good list, just wish they were closer to me.

I have been around engines since I was able to pick up a wrench, both on a professional level and on a hobbyists level. I have had the privilege of being involved in the build of 6 pro-street on up engines one of which turned just under 4200HP on the dyno. On down to working on the gloryless 50cc scooters.

So I can honestly say the same principals and functions apply across the board on a small displacement 50cc 4 stroke engine as a large 640 cubic inch blown engine.

As I said in my previous post, every thing may have been done and done correctly. Now only to be held up by some new stupid issue like a faulty electrical terminal or bad wire....... causing this misfire.

 

Could the plugs be in poor condition or are running cold? also i had bad luck with holiday in my audi in the past, bp has been good...

 

Car is back on the road now.