Fantastic Five at BIR 110912

You write a lot of words.

 

It's a disease.

 

I don't think anyone here can argue with some of your points on the short commings of the stock setup these cars have. But from my own experiences there was no way I was able to drive the car around the track being its own limits. I work my way up and listened to the car and let it tell me what it wanted, the info was like you said soft and not as harsh as a stiffer setup but it also allowed the car to be more forgiven and predictable. the softer suspension also allowed me to throw the car weigth around and used it to help it rotate through some of the tight corners. Having the ability to watch musashi drive my car around the track and see how much harder he could push it then I could ever think possible.

Yes, I could of drove it like a dumba$$ and smashed it into a wall, but any rational person will not push to that extreme. The rush of not being limited by a speed limit that after a couple of laps I was so physical and metally tired that I had to stop and that was also about the time the tires got a little slick and the brakes started to fade. As I got better at driving the brake fade was reduce and the tires lasted longer before going to ****.

The short of it I had a blast and by the end of the day my lap times were noticable faster and had a better feel for what the car could do. I don't feel like the car was limiting me in any way. If anything the car was more then I could handle and I don't think that is a stretch say.

 

Again as usual you've lost everyone after the first paragraph. Some talk a lot but say very little. If you've got something important to say just get to the point, cause I'm starting to think you're writing books just to hear yourself talk. You just said you've not been to BIR, so are you speaking from experience or your opinion?

You do realize todays safety standards are higher then ever. Subaru has been on top of that list for many consecutive years. A Forester can hold 4 times its own weight on its roof. They like many other manufacturers have their own test like racing controlled environment. The key word here is "controlled." Last time I checked we live in America, the home of litigation and capitalism. So do you think a car manufacturer would subject themselves to be in a lawsuit.

Driving schools been around for how long do you think, way longer then I've had my license to drive, so I think the topic that concerns you most has been addressed a few times over the course of a few years. Controlled: no intersecting traffic, learning objectives, instructors, corner workers and track rescue team standing by.

 

On the subject of driving feedback or sensory: majority of the students don't even know what this is. You can ask Joe what he's feeling and he'll tell you it either feels good or okay. So how do they know how to stay safe you might ask, from the G's my friend and the fear of death from the overwhelming sensation of just driving a few miles over the speed limit. Lmao

 

We sometimes have a tendency to use words to casually, without considering what it implies like "hard", in fact I drove them softer. I bring this up because it's the term most people use to refer to when describing fast or an exhilarating feeling of speed.

Now the word I'd like to use is "optimization." Although I was able to show the owners more speed and a new found respect for their vehicles I did not experience any of the mechanical exhaustions they did. The reason why this is important is because I want people to stop thinking that they have to drive harder to go faster. That is the goal right? But what if you were able to fully optimize the whole car, now would that be deemed faster?

Driving hard is something I'll only do in my own cars, NF's, race cars or clients. Otherwise if you're a student you'll only get as much as you can handle, always leaving room on the table.

 

I'm sorry for making a mess of this thread. I certainly do have opinions and believes on driving and on hardware that may be of little interest to many. I do understand now that we are discussing two very different levels of driving and in that sense, I am way off. It's been a long time since I've thought of racing as spirited driving. My mind and efforts are much more torwards 10/10ths due to what I seek and attempt to achieve from the hobby. From this, I think my views on the subject are too narrow minded for a useful discussion. Driving a stock car or near stock car in a spirited fashion around a track is certainly safe. The margin of safety is good, and one stays below the performance limits of the car. I just have a hard time not seeing the next step, when the driver does want to push it harder and bring the car up to and past the limit. That's where my mind is most of the time, so it obviously screems at me that this is a very bad idea on a stock car. If you're never there though, it actually isn't an issue though. For most of what you are doing, you are just out having fun and doing something you can't do on public roads, driving above the speed limit and feeling some Gs. It's a lot of fun, and it can still be extremely safe. Unfortunately, my discussion (or me blathering on like an idiot) wasn't on this same scope, so it was more inappropriate that helpful and is more so just cluttering up the thread. I'm sorry for that. I tend to have a desire to teach and create discussion, but sometimes I'm off from the actual subject. I'm certainly off from the actual subject here. I am certainly in the wrong and wasting people's time, especially making you read through or scroll through the mass of text that I so often write.

I think it's great that folks are getting out and driving their cars in ways that they are not accustomed to. It's a great learning experience. I've dragged friends into the auto-x and rally-x experience to help them improve their own driving, and they do it with poorly suited bone stock or near bone stock cars. They have a lot of fun and learn a good deal about driving. It's a good thing. One of my friends is vastly improved and much safer on the road. In the past he got into many accidents just driving on slightly poor roads (gravel, snow, ice). I don't know of another guy who's gone through so many bumpers in such a short period of time. After doing some rally-x and auto-x in a nearly stock car, he's much safer, much more confident on the road, and now has the skills to deal with adverse weather and surprise car behavior. If the car slides, he no longer panics. He knows what to do and simply drives the car. He also has a lot more fun driving because he's much more confident and experienced. I do feel track driving offers the same kinds of things to people and is good for everyone. Better drivers make safer road ways, and personal skill makes the whole experience more enjoyable even on a daily basis. Bravo for going out there and having fun.

I will try to be concise in my opinion. This represents my previous seas of text in a much nicer format:

At some point down the road you will want to go faster, you will want to push harder, and you will begin to find limitations with the car. The brakes are not well suited for aggressive driving and will limit how hard you can go into a corner. Better brakes will allow later braking, harder braking, and braking from higher speeds repeatedly without having to lighten up. Once lap times turn into something you race against, this will be an aspect you want to improve upon. Tires are just as important. At some point you will start working the tires very hard, and they will not hold up well to long, hard driving. They will wear out quickly and unevenly. A good alignment will both better use the tire and offer better grip. You can be quicker, and the tire will last longer. Also buying the right tire (a good summer versus all-season or even performance all-season) will also allow you to have more grip and have a tire that holds up longer to the forces and heat involved when driving harder. There will be more bang for the buck, and you can run more laps harder on a single set of tires. When attempting to control a car near the limit and attempting to be precise with a car, good communication and snug suspension is important. The more information you have the more informed you are to make rational decisions as things happen. When you are driving blind, you are clueless as to how the car is moving underneath you. When you aren't told what is happening, things can surprise you, and surprises aren't nice at 80mph. The increased information given to the driver also allows more rapid learning, significantly more rapid. One reason you're in this hobby is to learn and grow as a driver, and having a car that will communicate will help greatly. The more precision you have, the more exact you can maneuver and place the car. Inputs are more immediate and direct allowing you to be in greater control of the car. When you begin to want more information from the car, more precision and control, and a more direct interaction between your inputs and what the car does, upgraded bushings and mounts offer these things to you. All of these things will improve the car's performance when you begin to seek this and margin of safety for a given driving level. These things are not all that spendy and can make the car a lot of fun to drive harder.

I'm sure that's a little nicer to read through than everything else I've previously wrote. And again sorry for making a mess of the place.