Ask the companies that make bullets, tanks, air planes, and chemical weapons if they make any money on these wars... cripes man wake up. 750 billion dollars a year on the war budget while my tuition is going up and the no child left behind act is leaving behind tons of low income family and english as a second language children. Go down to that Hmong middle school in St. Paul and see if they're getting all the attention they deserve after their parents risked their asses for us in Laos during that so called "Conflict". No white middle class and up child left behind is more like it. But you're right, it would have been worse had the Bush family not spent 12 years in the white house.
Taras, I think you're the last person who needs to worry about calling someone else stupid. Do you ever bother to re read what you write? You say that Bush directly caused this. What, was he one of the people opening up on the family? I just asked my Magic 8 Ball if that's what happened, and it told me "No". Funny, I bet that it matches up with common sense. I also highly doubt that it was on the Presidential Planner for the day. Then you go on to say that it was happening there before, we just didn't know about it. So what is it? Either Bush caused it or it was happening beforehand. You are one of the few people I know who can contradict themselves in two sentences or less. Congrats. :roll: I think it sucks for the people of Iraq, especially considering that it's usually not their own people doing the killing but *******s coming in from other countries to wage war on their fellow Arabs and the Great Satan, all in the name of Allah. That's what the murdering bastards tell themselves anyway. This has been going on for thousands of years, we just have better coverage of it now. It should be noted that it's the extremists doing this, the majority of Muslims are peaceful, and the majority of Christians are peaceful, etc. As far as Bill Clinton being the greatest president we've ever had, I strongly disagree. That cowardly, lying sack of **** is one of the main reasons we are having to fight this war in the first place. Watch the History Channel special "The True Story of Black Hawk Down" to see where his chicken**** foreign policy started. The soldiers who fought that battle weren't bitter about the battle, quite the opposite. They rightly felt that they had won the battle against overwhelming odds. What they are bitter about is the fact that Clinton pulled them out right afterwards without allowing them to complete the mission they had been assigned. Why send them in the first place? He also had denied them the air and armor cover that had been requested, saying it was too "high profile". The Somalis who fought told the interviewers they had proven that if you kill a few Americans, they give up and go home. One important disclaimer though: It's not the military who gave up, it's the man who sent them. One soldier said that the man sending them to battle needs to be as strong as the people he's sending into harms way. That wasn't the case with Clinton. I'll be coming back to this. That foreign policy helped lead to the continued genocide in Somalia, as well as Rwanda. The death toll from those two alone is well and truly beyond what has happened in Iraq. The toll is in the millions. Never mind the embassy bombings that he ignored. Let's also not forget that he passed up a chance to kill Osama Bin Laden well before the 9/11 attacks happened. Must have slipped his mind while he was lying under oath. No worries there. He can play the saxophone on late night though! Every single soldier or Marine I know who's been over there has said they feel we're doing the right thing by being over there. For every story that's posted like this (and don't get me wrong, this is a heartbreaking story) there is another one that doesn't get posted or published about something good that's happened over there. The media does a lousy job of showing what actually goes on in the world, instead putting their own spin on it where it suits them. You almost have to watch all the channels and try to decipher what's between the curveballs each one throws, whether it's CNN or Fox News or somewhere in between. I think one of the main problems with our society is that we have become weak as a nation. We are nowhere near what our forefathers were in the spine department as a country. Yes, we have some very bright and brave young men and women and some very intelligent ones as well. But we have given teeth to the Somali argument that if you kill some of us we give up and quit on what we're doing. We lost more people in 30 days on Iwo Jima than we have in our entire time in Iraq. People forget that wars aren't won with smart bombs, with tanks and with aircraft. You need people on the ground to hold that ground and to do the close in fighting, to guard the population and to help train the new troops. Our country has forgotten what real sacrifice is like, because the likes of that haven't been seen since World War II. Someone mentioned Vietnam and how this is the same situation. Have you ever bothered to do any reading on the Vietnam War? On both sides. Try reading "How We Won the War" by Gen Vo Nguyen Giap. Most of it is useless, but one point to be taken away is that we won the military battles. We wiped out the North Vietmamese in every major confrontation. However, they knew they could keep bleeding us on the political and social fronts and that's how they won. Once again, it wasn't the military that lost the war. Giap himself said that had Nixon kept bombing Hanoi they would've surrendered within days. However, because of the weakness of the social and political landscape we allowed ourselves to lose. Iraq is not another Vietnam. The troop surge worked (and even the Democratic opponents have been forced to admit that) and General Petraeus has done one hell of a job in not only succeeding with the surge but to succeed with the Democratic party (who were part of a unanimous vote to put him in command) stabbing him in the back. The attacks are down and we are already starting to bring troops home. Here is the more important distinction: Bush has remained true to what he started out doing, and that's bringing the war to the Muslim extremists in the Middle East. He's stayed true to that even through the criticism, and in doing so has already proven himself more worthy of the office than LBJ, Nixon or Clinton. War is a terrible thing, but we didn't start this one. 9/11 wasn't the start either, although it was what finally brought us into action. Bush has done a lot better than the media has given him credit for. No, he hasn't been perfect as a president but he's been a damn sight better than some of our other options.
Jack, I just got a chance to read your posts. I missed those while I was typing my post. Very, very well put.
It's doing just fine right here. Why is it our fault you're ignorant and undereducated on the argument at hand?
Spoken like someone who really has no idea of the economy surrounding companies with military contracts. Look at the airlines, has the gov ever bailed them out? How many millions of dollars are made by companies who's products kill, or mess up the lives of hundreds of thousands in our own country a year, tobacco for instance. The civilian companies who work for our government are doing us a service by spending the extra they make to design and develop their next project for the military. Our military might is directly reflected by the companies who work for us. Also, how much do you think it cost to up-armor humvees, to equip troops with non-combat jobs with flaks and kevlar helmets because even the engineers working on hospitals get shot at. Do you think that when a Soldier or Marine is shot at and the equipment they has stops the round or that peice of shrapnel that he or she thinks, damn, this **** was expensive, I wish I got the cheaper one? The places we WASTE money in our government isnt in the places the budget is advertised. Look up the unsupervised spending accounts of state reps, etc. No child left behind has been a flawed program since it started. It sounds as if you are in school for teaching? My mother is a teacher too, has been for about 15 years now, and the teachers in just about every highshool she works with will tell you that no child left behind act has caused more problems for schools than any sort of positive effect, all things considered. Tuition costs I dont know much about. I do know how much my sisters have paid for their schooling and its outrageous. I'm not sure how the federal government can be blamed for that however, as it has been each schools individiual choice to impact their tuition costs.
Alls I'm saying is WAR is a business. Just like drive in theatres or subaru performance parts websites. The better business is, the more money is made. I got love for the soldiers on the ground, my dad was a green face in Vietnam and I've had several friends I've lost in the Rangers and the Marines. That shyt aint right. I knew them when they were kids and I would never EVER talk bad about that they did or didn't do. The bottom line is US imperialism. As for the NCLB act... it is total BS.. and it's a pile of sheot because it costs money, federal money to sub. these types of program. Well, when a R is in office, they typically like to reduce federal spending on these programs... so it goes. I'm not a teacher, I've volunteered there and I know those poor assed kids don't have a chance. That's what's really sad, is the kids getting caught up in this mess.
I met an Iwo Jima Vet at the Ford dealership the other day. He was a tough Marine, even at 91 years old. The man just about crushed my hand. Brian, 6821 Marines died on Iwo, 19,217 marines were wounded. Those are good numbers to have if you want to show just how tough the men who served before us were. Just throwing them out there. Our enemies have made the mistake that America’s enemies always make. They saw liberty and thought they saw weakness. - George W. Bush, President of the United States two days after 911.
Let me tell you that the men in the service havent gotten any less sour than the ones who served during WWII. I've heard stories of Marines and Soldiers doing things in Iraq that read off as nearly superhuman. There is a HUGE difference between the support and the country being behind the movement as a whole though. As a nation, we jumped to the defense of england and our friends in europe. When a similar number of people were killed at pearl harbor as 911, we declared war, and mobilized. Hundreds of thousands of men died to stop a psychotic dictator who was killing innocent people. Now when the people we're trying to help dont speak english, arent white, and people are dying, we arent willing to sacrifice a bit of our own incredible freedoms? In regards to the kids here who are 'getting left behind' by the system being flawed, do you not see any similarities? And ****, a girl in iraq would have gotten beat for bringing up wanting to go school, and get married off when she turned 13 or 14.
I'd like OEF-A, but we'll see. 911 pissed me off the most, and I think thats who I'd like to make life difficult for. OIF I heard they already have their numbers set and that guys like me (the ones finishing schooling) are going to be pushed off into other deployments until our numbers get cycled for OIF. ALSO, I'm done with this topic. I get all worked up and it doesnt change anyone's opinion, and just solidifies mine and makes me even more stubborn.
Before I shipped out for MCRD San Diego we had a pool function where we got to meet Charles Lindbergh, the last survivor of the first flag raising on Mt. Suribachi. I'm not sure if you guys were able to before you shipped out. He just died not too long ago. He was kind enough to share some stories from his experiences there. They truly were the greatest generation, and paved the way for us to be able to enjoy the things we do today. My own great uncle Robert and my Grandfather were both Marines in WWII, my Grandfather was a combat engineer at Guantanamo Bay and Uncle Bob was in most of the island campaign as a grunt, including Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Saipan and Okinawa. Having been able to hear their stories as well helped reinforce my beliefs that they were tougher than we are as a nation. BTW Jack, I never did ask what platoon/battalion you were in at San Diego.
I was in Platoon 1069, Delta Company, 1st batallion One of the 150 so marines that survived the sinking of the arizona was the grandfather of one of my squad leaders. He stood from his wheel chair for the playing of the national anthem, snapping to attention along with the other 4 or 5 oldest marines in the front row of bleachers. I shook his hand later, what a phenomenal guy. I'm sure in 40 or 50 years the generations of Marines and soldiers will think the same of those serving now. So we can hope I guess.
3rd Battalion, Plt 3110, Lima Co. Semper Fi bro. PM me and let me know when you're leaving. Dinner is on me.
Seriously, can you honestly say that our 2nd invasion of Iraq DIDN'T de-stabilize the region even more than it already was? :roll:
No sweat bro. Figure that there are only a few on this site who have been "over there" and have no idea what it is like. Wherever you go, stay safe, watch out for buddies, keep the faith and GET SOME! Gotta love Hooters (I'm first on the right). We carried that banner all over OEF and OIF.
no. the resident islamic expert has declared that all muslims are naturally violent and are predisposed to killing. don't worry though, he has also informed us that we (the USA) have the proper set of morals so we never engage in such activities.
As far as knowing what is going on with the war and politics, I am the last person to ask or try to sound intelligent at the subject. But I do know, Both my grandpas were in the service (I believe WWII) And I sure as hell appreciate what every man and women who serves this country is doing for us. I was born with a heart problem and serving was never an option. So a big Thanks to those Men and women who serve us today and RIP those that did what they could and did not make it home!!
OK, i mistyped. I meant that Bush did not cause this directly. However you and me are on two different sides. I think this war is ruining US and Iraq big time. It was started for a wrong cause and is not going in a right direction. And general "Betrayus" is doing a crappy job. So u think that all the marines and soldiers there are dieing for a good cause? By invading Iraq US only made foul of itself. War never brings long term piece. Why not help countries that really need it? Why other countries dont get into wars everywhere? I doubt you watched "Iraq for sale", where it talks a lot about how big companies are making **** ton of money on this war while thousands of young men and women are dieing for nothing. Thats all i want to say.
If you're serious about this, I would highly suggest both the book The Economic Hitman, written by John Perkins, and the documentary Iraq for Sale by Robert Greenwald.
Pure respect to our soldiers. Pure disrespect to the current "management" that has sent them into harms way with poor planning. This sh!+ makes me puke. Please spare the lives and brave hearts of our fine soldiers for an effort where they have a real chance at success and making a difference. I believe their lives are being wasted in the current Middle East conflicts and it breaks my heart and makes me sick. This is not because of intended purpose but because of planning and execution. We owe our soldiers better support and planning for the sacrifices they are willing to make. Just because they're willing and able doesn't mean leadership should serve them up for slaughter. They deserve better. Phuk Bush - hard, fast and sans l00b.
All I have to say is all this talk about the second reinvasion being illegal is pure BS. If you accept the premise that the first was legal (there was U.N. authorization, Iraq had already invaded Kuwait, we were expelling them, etc.), then the reinvasion was simply a continuation of the first war. Iraq signed a cease-fire agreement in which they agreed to do certain things and we agreed to stop attacking. Iraq failed to meet their obligations. Under the common law of contracts, if a contract is breached the parties are supposed to be put back in the position as if there had not been a contract. Result: we go back to bombing them and they go back to getting bombed. Given that we had already been bombing Iraq throughout the 90s under Clinton, I would say a state of war already existed prior to the 2003 reinvasion.
Very lawyerly... I don't think anybody questions legality per se. I think people question what the return is on so many troops and civilians being sacrificed. Do we have any examples of successfully converting non-christian cultures of any material scale to "democracies", as we might define them, in recent history? If it is not important to their culture, WTF is the realistically attainable goal?
Ok... So, pulling all our troops and support of innocent people out of Iraq will help bring success? You think that stories like the one the OP posted to start this thread will just go away? Should a country with all the abilities, will power, and man power to help step up in the face of such evil, just sit back and watch it happen, or better yet turn and look away like other countries? I think it is quite sad how it is so easy for so many to just believe what they see and hear in mainstream media... Do these people ever try to look up all of the positive impact we have made in Iraq? I guess it is better to have a charasmatic, well speaking, eloquent, saxaphone playing heartthrob in office. Not too mention flip-flopping, lying, cheating, "tell ya what ya wanna hear" type of person... Like stated before, at least Bush has been persistent and unwaivering in his fight for our freedoms. I for one would rather take it straight to the beast then wait for the beast to bring it to me. I personally have a hard time thinking about the fallen troops who have given their lives and the families who have lost the lives of their loved ones... If we were to just give up in Iraq and stop "wasting lives" as you put, it then we have NO CHANCE of "making a difference"!! Brian, PRA4SNO, first of all, I couldn't agree more with your statements... Secondly to you and all others who have and continue to fight for OUR rights and freedoms, I want to say THANK YOU! I have never served, but hearing about the bravery and abilities of our men and women in arms truly inspires me and makes me wish I would have given myself the opportunity to serve.
WOW.....really......wow............. and on your earlier post that says why we are the worlds police....that makes us THE worst police imagenable. we attack a country that was no "huge threat" for assumed production of WMD's...where were they? and meanwhile north korea directly threatens the us but we dont listen to it and go about our time....also what happened to the search for osama? i know we are still looking but seriously? we cant catch the guy who we think really attacked us on 9/11....Iraq really didnt have anything that we needed other than oil. protecting our way of life sounds more communist to me... also!..... we have taken a country that doesnt live under anything close to what the united states does. they are a much different counrty and we shouldnt "have" to change them. we have way bigger issues on our hands than how some other people are handling their own lives accross the globe. (not to mention how many other countries that are in waaaay worse shape than Iraq) In the united states we set the standard for THE Worst statistics as far as life....we have the highest infant mortality rate, lowest life expectancy, highest medical bills, and we are THE only more devoped country in the world to not practise univerval health care....WTF?! we need it.... sorry for going off topic so much ive been kinda holding that in.... only thinking on the Far left is retarded....only thinking on the Far right is retarded....the answers to our problems are in the middle. compramise is everything and key to sucess.....america is ****ed IMO
and another note about the war! our soldier suicide rate is higher than its ever been in history.....think about that....not only are we getting killed by enemy bullets...we are killing ourselves over there
No huge threat? Saddam helped fund the 911 attacks among other things. If you believe Michael Moore and the news stations the rest of the world is right we are the evil super power. In actuality the U.S. is one of the few stabilizing forces in the world at the moment. Not to mention the fact that me, you, and everyone else are very underinformed on world events the U.S. is involved in, as we should be. We do not need nor will we ever know all the inner workings of these conflicts. Unfortunately the news stations know what people want to see and hear. Bad news gets ratings good news is boring thats why we don't see a fraction of the great things that the U.S. is doing for the world. As far as fighting to maintain our way of life or standards of living, if you don't think thats a good idea well how would you feel about no car, no home, no schools, lack of food and water, ect. ect. I like my standard of living and would fight to maintain it any day. One last thing, health care reform I agree with but how can you want public health care when it has been an utter faliure around the world and not practical to fund. Government funded public health care is communism\socialism at its' best and worst. Great in theory, terrible when put into practice. End rant
Ah! Blood. Too much blood! I can say I have not seen progress in the war, anyone seen progress? Vote for Bama? End the war?
Certainly not. Unfortunately we are stuck in Iraq for a long time now -- we certainly don't want to pull another stunt like we did in Afghanistan back in the late '80s again and let the country fall even further into the ****ter. We can thank GB1 for that fiasco. :roll:
Bwahahahaha!!!!!! Rush just called; he's running low on the Kool Aid you borrowed from him. I absolutely lol @ the right wing extremist nutjobs out there and their claims that some sort of evil "libral" (of course they stamp that word onto anything they don't agree with) media agenda is out to get us. Ever heard of Fox News? And don't even try to say that the radio airwaves are taken over by these evil "librals" either. Spoken like a true sheep. Go have some more of that kool aid. :roll:
This is what I was referring to. Hell carl, I like you. You can come over to my house and **** my sister.
Oh, this I have to hear. Why is Petraeus doing a "crappy" job? What are you basing that on? And I also want to hear what other countries "really need" our help that we're not already helping? And those soldiers, airmen, sailors and Marines are dying to help another country rebuild and have a safer way of life. Since when is that not a good cause? Your "other country" argument is crap because there aren't any others who are capable of doing what the US can do. And you keep talking about them dying for "nothing". What would you say is something worth dying for?
Ironical. You just chirped out every sound bite Bush has ever spit out for Fox News in one post. Think beyond the rhetoric. Go fish.
I keep hearing people say that troops in Iraq are fighting for our freedom. BULL Shi t, i dont see any freaking connection between your freedom and troops fighting thousands of miles away. And about other countries. How about Kenya and other countries in Africa were thousands of people are Dieing from AIDS and their worthless corrupt government. War is worthless in anyway, people are smarter now and can figure out other diplomatic ways of solving issues between countries.
MR GORBACHIV BRING DOWN THAT WALL....... that worked.. only cause Reagan was gonna bomb the piss out Russia... ha ha (that's diplomacy)
.....and they would've fired right back and wiped us out as well. Russia didn't fall because we threatened them with military action; they fell because of the changing economic climate and their lack of a true free economic market. Blame capitalism, not Reagan.
