Subaru pulling out of the WRC??!!

They already have...

I agree, and we already saw signs of this "market inspired change" with the '08. It was definitely geared more towards the more main stream crowd.

 

I put this up there with the Challenger explosion, 9-11, the day Mitch Hedberg died, and the day Solberg won the championship on my birthday. Will never forgot where I was these days.

[flamesuit on]

 

I think the wrc may have to rethink.

Can they afford to alienate the Subie crowd?

 

This is very sad news.

From what I've heard about the FIA rule change, it was done in part so that future WRC cars could also be raced in touring car racing with essentially the same platform with a few changes. Therefore participating manufacturers will be able run in two different disciplines with the same car. A cost saving measure, but death to Subaru in both.

Amy

 

I just read this, very sad news indeed.

Subaru was so much an icon for WRC, I can only see it going downhill from here.

 

I just looked at super 2000 specifications and the current cars in this class. It seems we are assuming subaru does not have smaller cars. Subaru has at least one car that would fit into this category - Subaru Justy. It does not come to US anymore, but its something that can become a super 2000 car. It uses a I4 engine as well (at least the one I saw).

Also subaru has K cars from Japanese domestic market that can take part in these Super 2000 class.

So I personally don't think Subaru is doomed. If they want to, they can still compete in WRC as well as touring car championship. It just won't be an Impreza.

Also we may see many other manufacturers joining in. I think WRC will be just fine, might be more widespread in the years 2009+ .

 

justy is not built by subaru anymore...

and I think the Kei cars would be too small.

 

Yeah, just noticed that a Daihatsu is renamed as Justy. But Daihatsu is owned by Toyota(51%) and Toyota is Fuji's partner.

Seat Ibiza, which competes in Rally, has its roots to VW Polo, just an example of what could happen.

I guess, I get your point. Subaru will not have their competitive advantage that they had before due to their our design capabilities.

 

well it's about time MNSOC steps up to the plate and takes over. Obviously we have enough design, build, and driver talent around here

 

2010, the last "real" year for WRC

WRC Exectutive #1
"What can we do to make WRC awesome by 2011?"
WRC Exectutive #2
"Well, we could make it Faster and have more events and have factory teams do tons of R&D to Better the sport!!!"
WRC Exec #1
"I just sustained a major head injury and can't think straight, that sounds awefull... and your fired Exec #2!!! more-over, I will ask NASCAR what we should do! They have all kinds of great answers for making motorsports more profitable!"
NASCAR Stooge
"Well... If'n you can, I reckon you should make it so any team can race the cars good. The cars need to be the same and you can't have no inovat'n that might give one team an advantage, I also beleave that spectat'n at your events is not profitable, you should have them ralley in a cirlce all at the same time!"


Lesson, What is next?

WRnasCar, lots of jumps and shorter tracks, and cars that you can't identify from the modles off the streets, they will all look alike. Fans will have to pay to watch, and Home Depot, Skoal, and Coors will be the biggest sponcers in the year 2015.:emo::emo::emo::emo:

 

What?

An S2000 class car is exactly what they run in the British Rally Championship and almost exactly what P-WRC is right now. The JDM Subaru 2.0L STi is a PERFECT starting place for S2000 rules.

Your friend doesn't know what the hell is going on.

Alright, this is just rediculous. An S2000 class WRC car is going to be as fast or faster than than a current RallyAmerica Open Class car. You could build a competitive S2000 WRC class car for $200k, easy. That's pocket change compared to a Prodrive-prepped Group N car, not even a WRC car!

I think this is an awesome move on behalf of the FIA: the cars were too expensive to field for anyone, including Subaru for the 2009 season.

And saying the WRC will die without Subaru is stupid. Did WRC die when Lancia or Audi left? Did WRC die when they got rid of Group B? No, it got safer and more competitive.

Bull. Exact FIA rules are as follows:

No engine layout or transmission type is enforced. This transverse bull**** has been floating around since 2004 when they first started talking S2000 to scare up the Subaru community for no good reason.

I think most of you are missing one very important point: 2011 WRC cars are going to share a lot more with your street car than the current ones do. The only part we currently share is the frame. In 2011, you'll be able to buy a car that 80% mechanically identical to the WRC verison.

 

Ohrlysrslykthxbynowz? Fizzail.

Why the apologism for FIA faildom?

 

I'm correcting factual errors injected with personal opinion. I love rally and hate when people get their facts wrong.

I, therefore, am a failure and must know nothing.

 

OK. You're calling me out, and that's fine. My rally nut roommate may have lead me on little bit. Fair enough.

Fist of all, where did you get that info? Not saying it's crap, but would just like to know the source.


At the same time, if WRC is going to be so obtainable, why are they pulling out? If a moving version of a WRC S2000 car costs almost one fifth what a current WRC car does, and the fact that Subaru is one of the few still profitable car companies, why are Subaru and Suzuki pulling out? I'm not asking these questions to be a cockbag, but more to bring everything to the table, which is what I'm about. I may be owned here, but maybe not.

Granted, this is all still very early and a lot still needs to be figured out. If Prodrive could still run current boxer based cars in said WRC, that would be great. The simple fact that Subaru pulled out means something. If they could continue to sustainably support a top-level motorsport to maintain their brand image, why wouldn't they?


Also, how can you say how much a certain car costs to campaign? Just curious.

 

I should have said, "WRC as we know it." Mah badd.

 

Well, he's employed working on rally cars.

 

I work on 2 Open Class RallyAmerica cars and have had many conversations with competitors that've run in the British Rally Championship. All the spec regarding S2000 are from the FIA's .pdf file on S2000 rules and regulations. Pricing information comes from firsthand knowledge working with the cars and following more the technical aspects of WRC cars vs. their P-WRC car counterparts.

Because the Subaru WRC isn't competitive, and it isn't worth spending untold millions of dollars on a car that can't compete with Ford or Citroen for 2 more years. Subaru won't be able to compete with a transversely mounted engine car with the current WRC rules, simply because current WRC rules are so flexible you can engineer far superior weight and handling characteristics with a transverse design than you can with the current flat-4 design.

I'm going to be very bold in this next statement: Subarus suck at rally compaired to Evos, Citroens, and every other transversely mounted engine car under the current WRC rules. The rules are too flexible. Ford's engine sit BEHIND the front wheels. So does that damn french car. Subarus are AWESOME if you have to keep the stock engine configuration, but if you can move it around to wherever you want, an I4 slapped sideways has way better characteristics when it comes to handling, polar moment of inertia, weight distribution, compact design, the list goes on.

Because of this fact, it makes perfect sense to not blow money on something you can't win anymore. The competition is simply better engineered. It took a while to get there, but since 2005 Subaru's been outgunned in the engineering department. When they can win, and dominate for sure, S2000, they'll be back. That and it'll be far cheaper to field a team. A prepped S2000 car with all the bells and whistles legally can't cost more than around $200k. The current WRC car costs millions. It was an arms race that Subaru doesn't see a positive side to.

Personal experience mostly. The FIA also caps the cost of the car by massively limiting modifications, ie. very few composites, no active electronics, stock block (essentially) in the car, etc. There is only so much you can change. I also know that running a British Rally Championship car costs about $1 mil a season for everything, so do that times ten and you'll have what it takes for a privateer to run competitively in every event in the WRC. That's pocket change compared to the millions spent on the cars alone in today's WRC. I'm glad the current P-WRC guys will be able to step up to the plate and run with the factory teams.

 

^ Great post. That was the detail I was looking for.



So, the fact that Subaru was hell bent on staying with the boxer layout is what totally killed their chances of winning? I don't like your usage of the term "better engineered." Prodrive was stuck with what Fuji demanded and gave them in terms of what they had to work with. You can only do so much. It's like the part-time engineering job I have now. I can only design around what the BOSS says he wants. It sucks, bigtime, since he only has a fifth-grade education, but you have to do it. Prodrive is a phenomenal outfit, and have been around the block a few times. To say they were simply out-engineered pisses me off, majorly. No offense.



And yeah, when the big guy says they spend several billion yen on the rally team, I'll take that a 5, since it's not a couple or a few. That means, at current exchange rates, $56 million. Not a small chunk of change.

 

None taken. If Subaru wanted to be competitive in the WRC since 2006, they'd have build a transverse engine car, and it's the reason they're now leaving (among others, obviously).

This is why I'm happy to see S2000 rules coming into play: it's going to be a lot better racing for everyone involved. No more of this 2-team crap, and I'm betting there will be some awesome Evo vs. STi action once again.

 

Discussing this with my roommate last night, he seems to think Prodrive may have been part of the problem. The cars were competative, but they had so many DNF's all the time. Usually for stupid stuff that should not be failing at their level of experience building these cars. Your take?


I am still a bit skeptical on the polar moment idea. I'd have to do some calculations to be sure, but with the longitudinal layout of the Subaru, a bulk of the transmission sits quite a ways back compared to a transverse layout. Yes the motor in a transverse layout has it's center of mass further back, but the transmission does not have the luxury of tucking down in the tunnel. I should do some calculating when I get a chance.

 

I'll need get some reasonably close weights and their CoM's. It will be kinda hard without that info for the other cars though. I'll be doing a fair amount of guestimating, which isn't my favorite. Its better than dead reckoning though, where if you reckon wrong, you're dead.

 

Adapta (the second team) is still in, and Prodrive may very well run the cars without the factory backing....

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/s...eland/show-will-go-on-mcgarrity-14112883.html

 

Interesting article. Prodrive may be able to find major outside sponsors like Ford Citroen have done, as STi didn't allow them to do that before with the factory backing.

 

wow, we may be able to root for Subaru yet!

just how subaru these cars will be... I don't know?

 

The ford's engine and transmission are entirely behind the front driveline. So does the citroen. The pmoi of the subaru can't match it with the engine out front.

 

So...Blame Bush for FHI pulling Subaru from the WRC? We've got to blame somebody lol

 

Honestly, there's no one to blame but the FIA for not changing the rules a long time ago. The Focus WRC and Citroen WRC are AWD versions of cars that don't have AWD, with engines in totally different places and configurations than their street counterparts. At least the Subaru keeps the same layout and turbo setup.

I commend Subaru for building cars you can by that are very similar to their actual racecars (in style, form, execution, not exact parts), but it's totally screwed them in the current WRC rulebook. Making the best consumer cars pooched them in WRC.

And that's why I love S2000: you'll actually be able to buy a street-going WRC rallycar again.

 

Yeah, you can definitely say they were stubborn in sticking with their layout and ideals. Honestly, I don't think they should develop something for just one class of racing. It doesn't make good business sense and what they have is profitable due largely in part to how modular the platform is. Getting away from that would annoy all of us, and be pointless since what they have works well as is.


For me, I'm going to miss the outright excess and technology that is poured into the sport right now. I can see the driving itself being more exciting with less advanced cars and that's not a bad thing, but I'm also a geek and like to get into all the nuts and bolts of it too.




sigh

 

So, this is like my enjoyment of single speed mountain bikes - i.e. less is more?

 

dont forget that subaru will still be involved with the development and sale of GN cars for the PWRC.

i think that this is a blessing in disguise sort of thing.

 

IMHO, i transversely mounted engine setup in a subaru would be sweet! maybe mod for mod stis could finally get the edge on evos... you really cant beat the spool time with 3 feet of exhaust, vs like 6+ with a subaru. I would be all for a transverse layout on a subie, sure the roobles would be gone, but I would buy an sti for the power, not the sound, which in my opinion is alot of the reason why people like subarus so much. maybe subaru can come up with a strong 5mt like the evo....

 

My thoughts exactly, and Subaru's too I suspect. The Ford and Citroen cars were just developed for this, and going up against a clean slate car with an already outdated system (for WRC rules, not S2000 or RallyAmerica or PWRC) is going to lead to the slaughter we've seen.

And PWRC is going to (essentially) become the new WRC. I'm really rooting for the Evos to come back. STi vs. Evo WRC was the best ever.