So I guess I need to decide if I want to ditch exhaust for now and drop every last available cent I have into KYB AGX's and some springs or not. Hmmm ...
no, 150 lbs really isn't all that much, in the grand scheme of things. it might compress the springs another 1/2", but it's really not anything to design your suspension around. look at the northursalia link that martin posted. it has a list of spring rates for all kinds of setups, including stock for your car. do some comparing, and look for a setup in the 250 lb/in range. I also already posted the link to their website. you can order there, or call them up (they can also recommend spring rates, and then you can make sure you get something that's in stock....when I did this, I had my springs only a couple days later!). ebay is the place to go for the struts. you can get a set of 4 for ~$42x from a few sources. or watch the NASIOC/RS25 classifieds, you might stumble across a deal. but yea, that tirerack link is exactly what we're talking about. I'm going to say it one more time. get a borla-style exhaust header from ebay (~$230), and see if you like that. maybe pull the muffler off.... seriously, check out the videos on my site linked above, my car sounds extremely awesome, and is a $200 exhaust setup. it's a little ghetto, since it doesn't come out the back, but another $50 at a decent muffler shop could fix that.
Okay, so I've been thinking about this a lot today. There's definitely an advantage to simply finishing one major section of a car. I already have sway bar and endlinks and Group-N mounts on the way. If I add AGX's & springs I'll be pretty much set all around with suspension. A header alone hardly seems worth it. I want to do full exhaust at once. If I wait and put my money into suspension now, I'll still be able to do exhaust in the spring. With my tax return I'll be able to pick whatever exhaust I want. So, it's going to take every last dollar I can scrounge, but I think I'm going to do the shocks and springs. That would put my mod list at: Already ordered: ------------------------- Generic front & rear strut tower bars 22-26mm Whiteline rear sway bar w/ bushings 04+ rear sway bar bushing mount thingy. Whiteline heavy duty rear endlinks (the better ones) Perrin front-end links Group-N tranny & engine mounts Yet to order: ------------------------- KYB AGX's TBD springs Probably also will order: ------------------------- Paranoid Fabrications Cowl Stays/Fender Braces 20mm 02+ RS NA front sway bar w/ bushings :banana:
This seems to be the best price I can find on the AGX's: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KYB-...em270297869675QQitemZ270297869675#ht_2873wt_0
Aren't the P1's are kind of soft? And I'm pretty well set on the AGX's for adjustability. Looked at Tokico D-SPecs, but it doesn't appear that they have a version for the GC-era Impreza's (some apparently can be made to fit with some hacking, which I don't want to do).
So I chatted with John from Ground Control a few times yesterday and today. They come in at $122 a piece for the Kyb AGX's. To ship them and coilovers is $30. EBay KYB AGX's are $450 shipped. That means I'd pay about $40 more to get them from Ground Control over EBay. Sounds worth it to me. I like dealing with one company and feeling like I can call someone if I have a problem with the parts. Coilovers are another $400. Talked to John about the spring height issue. Chux, you said you had medium heights - 8" - and that you only had about an inch from the top before rubbing. John said the 8" setup has 1 & 3/4" adjust +/- from the center, which means you're effective range was from 9 & 3/4" to 8 & 3/4". The 9" setup only has 1" +/- adjustability. That's an effective range of 10" to 8". So, I think I'll go with the 9" setup. They recommend a spring rate of something like 318 lb/in for aggressive street. It's a spring they wind in some particular shape to resist binding. Also suggested that I go with an equal rate spring in the back due to the extra weight and the fact that the next step down is a big drop in rate (though custom rates can be ordered). I'm wondering if that rate is going to be too harsh. I think I may want to overshoot it than undershoot it. Otherwise, I plan to order early next week. Sway bars and endlinks are all rolling in. Engine & tranny mounts are here but it may be a few weeks before I install. Still looking for a good deal on fender braces/cowl stays (lots of people say they're the shiz on GC's, y0!). Anyone know who does a GOOD knock-off?
I am running what suspension-wise is an overweight RS. I have huge FSB. I would disagree on it causing 'push'. Understeer depends on conditions and the driver. When you aren't cornering hard - sure, it will cause some push, but you can always turn steering wheel more If you are cornering at the limit it will help, by reducing suspension travel into bad part of camber curve. So those saying it causes lots of push just aren't cornering hard enough Having said that - sway bars should be used for fine tuning. So start with decent springs and struts. Then get some bars, that don't have to be thick, just have to be adjustable. And you aready wasted money on some fancy endlinks, steel ones would've done just fine and saved you money on more important parts. If I was thinking about doing some track/autox I'd definitely invest into camber/caster plates. For 1k I'd get GC+AGX+camber/caster plates+cheapest adjustable bar and leave the rest of fancy stuff for later. Except for AGX the rest can be bought used for much less.
My OE endlinks are plasticy junk. Does someone sell decent steel ones cheap? I looked around but didn't find much besides the Kartboy's, Perrin's, and Whiteline's. I ended up buying mine used for less than new, but not exactly cheap either. And camber plates seem SO expensive. Plus, I'm just not sure that dialing in aggressive camber is the best idea for me given how much I simply drive the car down the freeway. Tire life is good for me.
I do, however, think I ordered some things pre-maturely and probably rushed into buying a bit too quickly. I tend to do that, but I think I'm going to be happy with the end result.
I think 318 lb/in would work well with the stronger damping. my 250/275 setup is soft enough to still be comfortable on stock struts. but I think you'll find the ride to be noticeably less comfortable if you dial the struts down to their minimum setting... And yea, I would definitely recommend the 9" springs. with my front end lowered as much as I dared (for a car show this summer, I never would've set them that low if I had to drive more than a mile to the show), my perches were easily 3" from the bottom of the sleeve. of course, the 318s will settle a bit less....so it won't be quite as severe... They're the spring experts, so if they think you'll be happier with one setup, take their word over mine!
Camber does not kill, toe does. You can save a bit by buying GD camber plates (I guess around 200), and flipping sides so that adjustment will give you some camber and some caster. Whatever you do - get the car aligned after new suspension settles down.
D-Spec > AGX The price difference is only around $50 now. There really isn't any point to buying the AGX strut anymore. I own the AGX struts, and I'm pointing you to the D-Specs. I've got nothing against AGX, but the adjustability and better compression/rebound ratio does fair better. Springs... Depends on how stiff you want to go. A good starting upgrade point is stock STI springs. It will bump you up a little bit but not end up really stiff. The strut dampening plays a big roll in how firm the ride feels, so a lot will be gained right there to begin with. Springs is the other half, and unless you get the grip up, you really don't need to go all that stiff. Also look into Pinks, Prodrive STI, and RCE Black and Yellow springs. Those will run you the gambet between 200 lb/in to 300 lb/in and cover most of what you'll be looking at. Swaybars... Ditto on not touching the front. Until you run higher spring rates, there isn't really a reason to do this. Bump up the rear to somewhere between 20mm and 22mm, and it will turn very good. The big front swaybar epidimic is mainly a byproduct of auto-x rules. For handling dynamics, it will minimize roll and improve camber, gaining some front grip and improve turn in. However, it will also make the car understeer more. A bigger rear bar will also improve roll and camber but decrease understeer. Bushings... You didn't say anything about these in terms of suspension. There is a LOT to gain here, so don't ignore them. Steering rack bushings and ALK on the front end will make the steering very precise and the car tracking exact. On the rear, upgrade lateral link bushings or swap in new arms(not very cheap) and get the rear end exact too. Bracing... You mentioned fender cowl braces but nothing about the rear tower. The rear strut tower brace and front fender cowl braces are probably your two biggest stiffener upgrades. Look for a tri point rear brace. GT-Spec even has a "cage" setup for the rear. I'm not sure what years it's available. There are a few multipoint rear braces available that will function better then simply the cross brace. Exhaust.... I'd lean you towards OBX, but I'm a fan of function. You'll simply make more power everywhere. Then you can simply purchase an appropriate muffler to get a deep, full tone. The muffler defines the sound. The header just adds some burble. I feel too many people overemphasize the header and pretty much ignore the muffler in terms of the end sound.
D-Spec > AGX Agreed. But I didn't see a D-Spec for the GC-era cars? I didn't see one? Not one that would fit without a fair amount of hacking. Maybe I missed it though. Can you link me to it? I'm only a few short days away from ordering. http://www.rs25.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75554&highlight=tokico Honestly ... not sure I want to deal with all that ^^ Bracing... Rear strut tower bar is already installed. Exhaust.... Put it on the back burner. Spring will find me in a position to do it better. I'll be doing more research on exactly what pieces to go with, but I'll probably be doing header-back incl. high-flow cats. Also, definitely need to tighten that nut behind the wheel.
look around in the vendor and member for sale section on RS25. Jnorth85 over there did a run of custom fender braces (I have a set) that were very reasonably priced. Last time I checked there were still a couple sets floating around for sale. I think one shop had them up for sale, as well as a few members. I has some of these: http://www.rs25.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49522&highlight=fender+braces Also the early 90s legacys came with OEM fender braces which will bolt directly on to a GC. They are not as flashy looking but will definitely improve handling (although not to the level of a well designed aftermarket part) I have a set of these sitting on the rack at home.
ah .. I was trying to find those on NASIOC. Saw a bunch of stuff discussed regarding the braces where jnorth was chiming in, but never found anything FS. I'll head over and check out rs25 and see if I can find it. Looks like the JNorth are just as much as the Paranoid Fabrications, and there doesn't seem to be much recent activity on the jnorth stuff. Hmm.. Wish I could just catch a used set, but they go SO fast and are rare to see on NASIOC (yeah, I been watching for the braces for like 6 months). I'll probably just order new I guess, cause the absolute best time to install them will be when I have the front struts off and I might miss that point if I wait for used.
from your rs25 link...... http://www.autocarparts.com/part/963/7183/ + ground-controls = problem solved.... except they're almost $200 more expensive.
"It turns out the HTS002 Listing for the 93-98 model Impreza, is in fact different compared to a 00RS strut. It's the spring seat. Go figure. The guy said everything else was fine, but the spring seat. I suppose with Ground Controls this would not be a problem though." -- http://www.rs25.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1309135&postcount=8 No one seems to answer that definitively and I don't know enough to guess. Suppose I should call up Ground Control again and ask em. Doesn't look like anyone on EBay has the 93-98 version, just the GD version. The search continues .....
Hmm ... this, though: "I talked to Tokico who said that the rear struts from the HTS002 set only has ONE mounting hole on the bottom. My best guess is that this is for FWD or non-rear-disc L's." -- http://www.rs25.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1436985&postcount=17 (I knew there was another reason I dismissed those 93-98 Tokico's from my mind - just couldn't remember)
well, the ground control coils don't use the stock spring perch (well, only the inside 1/4" or so...), so perch design doesn't matter with the sleeves. there's no way they have only one mounting hole on the bottom. both bolts are insanely crucial to holding the knuckle on. if it fits on a '93-'98 car, it'll fit on a '99-01.... they might just be covering their backs, because the rear suspension on '99 legacies changed, and only use one bolt on the bottom of the shock (multilink instead of partial McPherson). I was trying to remember why I haven't looked at D-specs.....oh yea, they don't make them for Miatas, so I'd have to do something else in the rear.
Some interesting info on Tokico's + GC Coilovers here: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1216901 Nothing yet on fitting GC-era chassis. I'm going to keep looking. Cold weather has killed my drive to work on my car (no heated garage), so I'm not in a huge hurry, and it would be nice to get the better struts. Plus, as far as I can tell it's still kinda an open question and lots of people may be interested to know if it will work. EDIT: after reading more of that thread it sounds like more hacking to get the GC srpings on the D-specs than to get GD struts on a GC body. yuck.
Uh...aren't the struts from 98 to 07 all the same? ....like for all the cars(cept 114mm bolt STIs)? Yes, valving changed and 04+ got new rear tophats and a redesigned threaded shaft. My understanding is they all fit all the cars. ...??? As in the DSP-10 "WRX" struts will plop right on your 01RS, and you just grab a set of 04+ rear tophats and the strut spacer from TiC and any set of springs you want made for any RS, WRX, STI.
^^ same Back Road Runner from NASIOC? I see that names LOTS in my current suspension research. GD chassis changed something like track width (I'm probably slaughtering terms being such a newb). My understanding is that there's a tab that is longer or in some way different and it creates a lot of positive camber or something else equally undesirable in the alignment. My budget doesn't really fit nice camber plates to dial it out. Plus, I thought one needed to use some washers or other techniques to create some proper spacing using GD suspension on a GC chassis. Sounds like it creates lots of clunking issues too. Then some guy was inserting pop cans into his strut for some reason or another - I didn't even want to go there. (not to mention sawing his spring perches off and all kinds of other crazy stuff?) If I'm wrong (and I really hope I am - D-Specs, y0!), that'll be great. I was going to try giving TiC a call today and see what they had to say about it.
Are STi rear top hats different from non-STi rear top hats? I ask cause someone is selling 04 STi rear top hats right now for cheap!
okay, thx. Sorry to be so all over the map, guys. It's kinda tough to figure out what works and what doesn't without the experience and/or piles of parts and cars laying around to just try stuff, you know? I totally understand the benefit of the D-Specs over the AGX's, which is why I'm putting so much time into trying to understand what could work and what won't. I figure as long as I'm dumping a grand into struts & coilovers I'd feel like an a** passing up a clearly superior product.
I still don't understand why those 93-98 Impreza D-Specs won't work. Two different people at two quite different times had talked to Tokico and gotten the one mounting hole for the rear response. I really don't get that - since it seems pretty clear that would make them not fit any 93-98 Impreza.
Are there any disadvantages (other than cost) to using the ground control coilover sleeves versus just some plain old springs?
guy running d-specs and GC sleeves on an RS....shoot him a message: http://www.rs25.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87397 also, cutting off the lower spring perch is common when using coilover sleeves. but not required.
ooh - good find. Cutting those perches off stuck in my mind since I think my new rims & tires are rubbing on the perch on my stock struts (225/50 on 17"s FTL - maybe higher spring rates and 225/45 or 225/40's will fix it, though).
Wait ... he says he used Group-N top hats in the rear??? I'm obviously still missing something in that respect.
spring rates will have zero effect on tire v perch clearance. I don't know what's up with the rear top hats. send him a message, I bet he knows.
Rubbing only occurs on turns and big bumps - thought higher spring rates resulted in less compression given the same force. Now that I picture the setup in my mind though, I guess the spring seat and top of wheel wouldn't move in relation to each other. Wrong or right?
Replied to your Nasioc post. Reiterate, You own a 01; you use anything that fits 98-07 on your car, Impreza/WRX/STI(5x100 bolt). It will all fit. The HTS002 is 93-98 older models that have a different suspension setup that you don't have. You buy the DSP-10 D-Spec struts. They'll plop right on. If they don't, you can sell them anywhere in about 30 seconds. :laugh: Heck, I'll swap you my 98-01 specific AGXs +$100 for them. ...and they'll go right on my 98-01 Impreza based 02 Forester. :biggrin: In terms of springs, just use the perch. There's no real reason to step to the smaller spring design if you have no need. There are also a lot of spring options already available in the full, normal size, including dirt cheap stock springs off STIs and such. Watch the For Sale section on Nasioc and RS25 for options too. You can generally pick up used $300-$400 springs for $200 or less. Your spring choice will depend on your goals for the setup. This includes overall firmness, linear vs. progressive design, ride height, and relative rates front and rear. Don't think about this part lightly. Half of how your car rides is based on dampers. The other half is springs. Handling too will be based off these two aspects as well as sway bars.
Yeah - springs. Oofta. So many decisions. But there are definitely differences. I understand that lots of stuff will bolt in and fit, but there's definitely a difference with the struts between 2001 & 2002. Putting the struts for later model years, as best as I can tell, creates an alignment that is off enough that it seems camber plates in front and camber bolts in back are necessary to get the alignment right. Am I wrong about that (and I most certainly could be - but that's what I'm reading everywhere)? Rear camber bolts, sure, cheap. But front camber plates, no, expensive. Not in budget. Unless I'm missing somewhere that the bad alignment isn't actually that far off and can be "dialed" out without camber/caster plates. People also fuss about ride height and valving differences between 01 & 02 but that seems moot. I get that the 02-03's will fit, I just can't afford $400 extra in parts to fix the alignment and I really don't see a need for me to have that level of adjustibility in the alignment either. It's a big purchase for me and I'm trying to make sure I understand everything involved before rushing off and spending $1000 too unwisely - I also want to get the most for my money. BTW - your enthusiasm for bushings got me testing the steering response on the drive home from work and it really is delayed, isn't it.
This is frustrating me: http://www.jdmpartstx.com/gc8_suspension/ Everyone points to that site as the source for what exactly is different and how to compensate for it when putting 02-03 struts on 99-01's, but it's no longer there. eerg.
"It was my understanding that the ONLY differences between WRX SEDAN struts and GC/GM/GF struts was the length of the tabs on the bottom of the struts due to the wider track width of GD sedans." I've seen at least half a dozen statements to this effect - it's tabs on the bottom of the struts and depending on how the person describes it it causes a "loss of negative camber" or more positive camber. I mean, really - people are saying this all over and over and over. I'd love this to be wrong, but I've seen it so many times that it's now hard to believe it could be wrong. "You have rear camber issues with New Age struts in old school cars ..... The spindle/knuckle doesn't go anywhere laterally with the New Age struts- the lateral links and trailing links don't change . All you are doing it moving the top of the knuckle into a position it's not expecting because of the strut differences- the camber bolts correct this." -- North Ursalia on NASIOC
